Slipstroke: Loose Grip = CB Action

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... In my stroke, without wax, the cue slips forward through my hand.
Sounds like you use a stroke slip rather than a slip stroke.

Slip stroke — The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.​
Stroke slip — As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a “throw” or “release and catch”).​
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Sounds like you use a stroke slip rather than a slip stroke.

Slip stroke — The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.​
Stroke slip — As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a “throw” or “release and catch”).​
Yes indeed, I now realize I have a "retarded stroke slip". Thanks to everyone for your help. In the grand scheme of things, this knowledge means little, but it means a lot to me. I suspect I developed this method because I tried to cradle the cue as loosely as possible in my hand. (This evolved from my experiment with a two or three finger grip which I read about in a library book approximately 40 years ago. I never got comfortable with the two or three finger grip, but the concept of minimal hand/finger involvement made sense and stuck with me.) Like I've said many times before, without wax on my wrap, I would be throwing my cue down table. With wax, I am able to cradle the cue very loosely but not throw the cue.

The benefit that I perceive from a loose grip is twofold: first, the CB reacts better with a loose grip, and, second, a loose grip allows the cue to travel on it its linear path with less interference. (Stating number two differently: a loose grip does not transfer deleterious movement to the cue as readily as a tight grip.) I am not saying that I am correct, and I am certainly not saying if I am correct, that any of this makes any difference. I state the above simply for purposes of comprehension and comparison by others. Simply put, the above is description of an aspect of my game which has evolved over fifty plus years as I tried to improve my pool game.
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
I played for many years with what some here would call a "death grip". Never had a problem getting cue ball action. Earl Strickland uses a death grip also.

I will say that some, very delicate shots can be negatively effected by a tight grip, but as long as we're talking shots that are reasonable (where you actually pocket a ball), there is little to no difference. Honestly those shots come up more in straight rail billiards than in pool, and IMO it's not that they can't be made with a tight grip, they're just harder to make with such a grip.

I went back to a more traditional snooker style grip, because I play that game in addition to pool. Sometimes I miss the firmer grip, especially in pressure situations, but overall I think I play better with this grip, all aspects considered.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
The benefit that I perceive from a loose grip is twofold: first, the CB reacts better with a loose grip, and......
What exactly do you mean by "reacts better"...?

This forum has so many conflicting theories that it's tough to follow at times....lol
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
What exactly do you mean by "reacts better"...?

This forum has so many conflicting theories that it's tough to follow at times....

For me: the looser my grip the better spin and english I get. Conversely, a tight grip inhibits spin and english. Others are welcome to their opinions, I just know what happens in my game.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
For me: the looser my grip the better spin and english I get. Conversely, a tight grip inhibits spin and english. Others are welcome to their opinions, I just know what happens in my game.
"Science" says that the amount of spin you get depends entirely on where you hit the CB - no "stroke quality" matters except accuracy. So you must be improving your stroke's accuracy with the looser grip.

pj
chgo
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
"Science" says that the amount of spin you get depends entirely on where you hit the CB - no "stroke quality" matters except accuracy. So you must be improving your stroke's accuracy with the looser grip.

pj
chgo
". . . second, a loose grip allows the cue to travel on it its linear path with less interference. (Stating number two differently: a loose grip does not transfer deleterious movement to the cue as readily as a tight grip.)" Errant movement is "connected" through a tight grip. A loose grip provides a "cushion" or margin accomodating error between the body/arm/hand and cue.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
For me: the looser my grip the better spin and english I get. Conversely, a tight grip inhibits spin and english. Others are welcome to their opinions, I just know what happens in my game.
"Science" says that the amount of spin you get depends entirely on where you hit the CB - no "stroke quality" matters except accuracy. So you must be improving your stroke's accuracy with the looser grip.
...What about velocity. The difference is more likely to a "whippy" snap of his wrist combined with forearm movement. Accuracy sure, but I am curious as how much difference would be derived from say a millimeter or two of less spin.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
...What about velocity. The difference is more likely to a "whippy" snap of his wrist combined with forearm movement. Accuracy sure, but I am curious as how much difference would be derived from say a millimeter or two of less spin.
I believe that more speed can be delivered by a well timed "snap" of the wrist. It makes perfect sense physically. The tip of a whip breaks the sound barrier. Try to do that with a rigid pole...Of course even more speed can be generated by dropping the elbow, standing up as to make the arm a long lever etc...The problem is then: how important is that extra bit of speed, and how much accuracy are you willing to potentially lose? That is a question for every player to answer for themselves. I know that with a very rigid wrist (which follows from a death grip) it is very difficult to get power without elbow drop. Players who advocate a death grip, also drop their elbows, typically. Many players do both, snap wrists and drop their elbows.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I believe that more speed can be delivered by a well timed "snap" of the wrist. It makes perfect sense physically.
Oh for sure... no different then taking a step forward while throwing a ball. Countless examples of compound movements to generate velocity.

Exactly as you say though. You need to weigh potential gains vs other aspects. I for one, will never "throw" a cue, and that slip stroke is very entertaining but not for me. I'd have to reconstruct my mechanics for those things to even be an option. I see no value in revamping my game for sake of another 12" worth draw on the CB
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
"Science" says that the amount of spin you get depends entirely on where you hit the CB - no "stroke quality" matters except accuracy.
...What about velocity.
Yes, some wrist action can add (a little) speed to the stroke, but that increases RPMs and speed together, not spin-to-speed ratio (which is the factor that matters to spin "effect" - change of direction off a rail). And you can get the same effect by simply stroking a little faster.

pj
chgo
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sounds like you use a stroke slip rather than a slip stroke.

Slip stroke — The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.​
Stroke slip — As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a “throw” or “release and catch”).​
Describing the technique doesn't nullify the genre which is, slipstroke.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I do not want to throw my cue -- I take the preventative step of waxing.

Also, consider this -- Most folks who have played for 20 or more years should have a practiced stroke which might incorporate any number of anomalies which would affect accuracy but for the fact that the player has learned to accomodate the variance. Take W. Hoppe's incredible side arm stroke. Common wisdom would dictate Hoppe would have been lucky to run a rack, but . . . it was his stroke to which he was accustomed and which he had honed to accuracy.

"Hoppe strongly insists that everyone's stroke should go straight ahead, even to the end of the stroke. It is therefore most interesting to find from the photographs, that Hoppe himself never makes a long stroke of that kind. He cannot make it. He is a 'side-wheeler', a 'sidewinder', a side-arm player. As a boy, playing a good game at age five, he had to raise the arm out sidewise in order to play at all. He still raises the arm. His forearm does not hang vertically from the elbow. With such a swing, it is impossible to achieve a straight-through stroke. Every photograph that yields any evidence shows that Hoppe's cue tip wanders definitely to the right in the post-impact travel. Hoppe told the writer that he believes he himself should use the pendulum swing, and would probably by now have changed over — but for the time it would take to re-learn."

MOORE, MECHANICS OF BILLIARDS, AND ANALYSIS OF WILLIE HOPPE'S STROKE
 
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The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Yes, some wrist action can add (a little) speed to the stroke, but that increases RPMs and speed together, not spin-to-speed ratio (which is the factor that matters to spin "effect" - change of direction off a rail). And you can get the same effect by simply stroking a little faster.
Makes sense to me... I wonder though. How much additional cue tip speed can be generated by snapping the wrist.

I just check amazon and an accelerometer can be had for <$10. Got to be a way to tape one of those bad boys to a cue and apply some math for a comparison. Apples to apples for forearm speed I think would be the difficulty
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
How much additional cue tip speed can be generated by snapping the wrist.
Try using only the wrist to propel the CB: get in stance with the tip at the CB (forearm straight up & down) and hit the CB by moving only your wrist. You might be surprised at how little speed you can add that way. The "whipsnap" effect doesn't work with your arm/wrist.

pj
chgo
 
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