Slow Rolling

[Snoogi]

Klockdoc's talking about stun run-through, a great technique for shots where you need a little movement forward, but don't want to slow-roll. Using a medium pace from this distance, just aim 1/2 a tip or so above center on the CB. It takes some practice to learn to do properly, but it's a great shot to know, especially on unfamiliar/unreliable equipment. There's a video floating around where Steve Davis shows how snooker players do it.

-djb

A very useful type of stun shot. Dead center of the CB and punch firmly but not rolling, after contact, the CB will move forward few inches. Higher the cuetip above center, the more the CB will move forward, very good for the more delicate positional plays..

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Blackjack:
I am merely twisting the bottom axis of the 3 ball (where the ball meets the cloth) in the direction of the center of the corner pocket (I hope that makes sense to somebody else besides me). lol

In other words, you're hitting the shot with a little inside english to sharpen the draw angle?

pj
chgo

 

[klockdoc]

In other words, you're hitting the shot with a little inside english to sharpen the draw angle?

pj
chgo

I would say outside english to throw the three into the corner and thereby creating a fuller hit on the three. He is cutting the ball to the left side of the pocket, thus allowing him to draw back straighter.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For both PJ and DCP, all I can say is learn the shot and try it out.

I know stun rollthrough very well, and if you want to hit above center on the CB and have it roll through only a short distance after hitting the OB, you have to (1) hit hard enough so no "extra" follow is picked up on the way and (2) start with a straighter shot so there's little or no carom. Maybe you're thinking of a drag draw shot, which you hit pretty low and soft.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would say outside english to throw the three into the corner and thereby creating a fuller hit on the three. He is cutting the ball to the left side of the pocket, thus allowing him to draw back straighter.

This would have been my guess too, until I saw the hit he illustrated on the Wei cue ball.

By the way, either of these techniques (inside or outside draw) only work for almost straight shots - otherwise the sidespin tends to move the cue ball sideways more than you want. This shot looks like too much of a cut to me.

pj
chgo

 

[RRfireblade]

i had this shot on the 3-Ball last night, and elected to slow roll it in, and roll up for position on the 4-Ball. if i would have gotten straight on the 4-Ball i could have drawn back for the 5-Ball (Point A), and if i would have left myself with a slight angle i could have either stunned over or come off the rail for the 5-Ball (Point B).

either way, i undercut the 3-Ball ever so slightly, and it hung in the pocket. perhaps i was so worried about not wanting the cue ball to roll very far i forgot about pocketing the object ball? i thought about going down the table, off the short rail, but the 6-Ball was blocking the top right corner pocket.

anyway, how would you posters have played this?

DCP

I woulda made the 3 , it's darn near straight in.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I woulda made the 3 , it's darn near straight in.

I'm sure you woulda made it, but these Wei diagrams can be deceiving when it comes to angles. When you draw the lines out you can see it's more like a half ball hit, a 30-degree cut. That's why I don't think there's much chance of killing the cue ball.

CueTable Help

pj
chgo

 

[Blackjack]

When you draw the lines out you can see it's more like a half ball hit, a 30-degree cut. That's why I don't think there's much chance of killing the cue ball.

pj
chgo

I don't know about all of that other stuff, but I do know I could make this shot and have the cue ball drift "slightly" and I would do it exactly how I diagrammed it. I tell players all of the time, you have to "feel" the shot. This is one of those situations where knowing how to "snip" a ball makes things easier for you, while guys that haven't got a clue about how to do it sit there scratching their heads.

 

[DoomCue]

I know stun rollthrough very well, and if you want to hit above center on the CB and have it roll through only a short distance after hitting the OB, you have to (1) hit hard enough so no "extra" follow is picked up on the way and (2) start with a straighter shot so there's little or no carom. Maybe you're thinking of a drag draw shot, which you hit pretty low and soft.

pj
chgo

Actually, I think I described very well what I meant, and provided a video. If you think from my description and Steve Davis's video that I meant a drag draw shot, maybe you should spend a little less time trying to put words in other people's mouths and start trying to pay attention.

-djb <-- wonders if PJ just likes to listen to the clickety-clack of his keyboard

 

[TATE]

DCP,

Because of where the 5 is, your original strategy would not be a very good one anyway. Sometimes its better to travel. If I had too much angle on the 3, I would just go around the 4 with high left, leaving the cue ball at position A, which gives me an easy angle to get on the 5 (position B).


Chris

CueTable Help

 

[Russ Chewning]

I know stun rollthrough very well, and if you want to hit above center on the CB and have it roll through only a short distance after hitting the OB, you have to (1) hit hard enough so no "extra" follow is picked up on the way and (2) start with a straighter shot so there's little or no carom. Maybe you're thinking of a drag draw shot, which you hit pretty low and soft.

pj
chgo

Just for the record, the stun run-through stroke can (and is) used on off angle shots, depending on the speed and the position needed for the shot.

It's especially useful on not-quite-straight in shots close to a rail, where you need to get more "spread" off the rail, but still need to go forward.

It is also useful on making certain one pocket banks, as it increases the friction between the cue ball and object ball.

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

DCP,

Because of where the 5 is, your original strategy would not be a very good one anyway. Sometimes its better to travel. If I had too much angle on the 3, I would just go around the 4 with high left, leaving the cue ball at position A, which gives me an easy angle to get on the 5 (position B).


Chris

CueTable Help

This would be my first choice as well. The GREAT thing about this shot, is that if you "think" about the shot properly, it is damn near dog-proof.

Why?

Because you have position from the moment you can comfortably shoot the 4 in the side along this position line, all the way for another 2 feet!

So, as you are preparing to shoot this 3, you can tell yourself, "It's impossible to miss position on this shot." and when you can tell yourself that, it makes pocketing the ball SO much easier.

Russ

 

[Flex]

Maybe, but I'm betting if it's hit with enough speed to actually be a stun runthrough, it will go farther than shown. I think any above-center hit must be slow rolled (the shot the OP described) to go that short distance.

pj
chgo

Ah, but the action on the cue ball when shot a touch above center will differ depending on the the cue, on the shaft, on the stroke, on the tip... Gotta know your own equipment.

Just picking a nit.

Flex

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... the action on the cue ball when shot a touch above center will differ depending on the the cue, on the shaft, on the stroke, on the tip... Gotta know your own equipment.

Actually, no, the limitation I described doesn't depend on the stroke (assuming you mean something more than the speed and tip/ball contact point) or on the equipment - except for one part of it you didn't mention: the cloth. If you're playing on brand new, very slick cloth, you *might* be able to hit a stun rollthrough shot soft enough for the desired outcome.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just for the record, the stun run-through stroke can (and is) used on off angle shots, depending on the speed and the position needed for the shot.

Sure. But the CB goes too far for this shot.

It's especially useful on not-quite-straight in shots close to a rail, where you need to get more "spread" off the rail, but still need to go forward.

It is also useful on making certain one pocket banks, as it increases the friction between the cue ball and object ball.

Yep, these are good examples.

pj
chgo

 

[Flex]

Actually, no, the limitation I described doesn't depend on the stroke (assuming you mean something more than the speed and tip/ball contact point) or on the equipment - except for one part of it you didn't mention: the cloth. If you're playing on brand new, very slick cloth, you *might* be able to hit a stun rollthrough shot soft enough for the desired outcome.

pj
chgo

I suppose here's where we might just have to agree to disagree, as I do indeed maintain that stroke influences the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of different cues, and that in turn can affect the outcome of the shot. Not only can it influence the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip, but also any spin produced can vary.

Been my experience; your's might well be different.


Tell me... I imagine you have, but don't want to assume anything here. Have you experimented widely with different cues, shafts, tips, and so on? If so, have you experimented with one cue then the next immediately after then back to the first to try something different and then do the same with the second?

Flex

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...I do indeed maintain that stroke influences the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of different cues...

To mean anything, you'd have to say that stroke can influence the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of the same cue hit at the same speed. Otherwise, you haven't isolated the stroke as the cause of the difference.

And to be credible, you'd have to be able to do it yourself. I'm pretty sure nobody can.

... Not only can it influence the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip, but also any spin produced can vary.

I can show you how to do tests that show otherwise.

Have you experimented widely with different cues, shafts, tips, and so on? If so, have you experimented with one cue then the next immediately after then back to the first to try something different and then do the same with the second?

Yes, with controls to test these very things. House cues, commercial cues, custom cues, shafts of my own design, you name it. I know how it seems like things happen that don't really.

pj
chgo

 

[Flex]

To mean anything, you'd have to say that stroke can influence the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of the same cue hit at the same speed. Otherwise, you haven't isolated the stroke as the cause of the difference.

Here's another area where I have to disagree with you. First of all, I do not maintain that the speed of the ball coming off the tip of one cue will be the same speed as another cue. It will vary depending, even when the stroke is the same, or as similar as I'm able to produce. Different tips and shafts and so on will produce different speeds on the cue ball all with the same stroke. That's my point. To achieve the same speeds and spins on the cue ball with different shafts and cues and tips may well require a different kind of stroke, different speed of stroke and so on. If you have a problem with that statement, we'll likely be unable to come to any agreed upon conclusion about all this stuff.

Flex

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Flex:
...I do indeed maintain that stroke influences the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of different cues...

Me:
To mean anything, you'd have to say that stroke can influence the speed of the cue ball coming off the tip of the same cue hit at the same speed. Otherwise, you haven't isolated the stroke as the cause of the difference.

Flex:
Different tips and shafts and so on will produce different speeds on the cue ball all with the same stroke. That's my point.

Your point WAS that the stroke influences the speed of the cue ball - at least that's what you said above.

pj
chgo

 

[Flex]

Quote: "Your point WAS that the stroke influences the speed of the cue ball - at least that's what you said above."

Yes, that is what I said above, and I still maintain it.

Pat, I've yet to figure out what the problem is. You seem to get lost in minutiae from time to time, and it makes figuring out these problems quite difficult.

We have been discussing tips, and shafts, and cues, and different strokes, and balls, and cloth, and other things too, I'm sure, but the listed topics are enough to boggle most people's minds.

This is getting slightly exasperating, to be candid.

Oh, I forgot to mention eyes, and dominant eyes, and percentage of eye dominance, and what happens if someone's right eye is 84% dominant, and their left eye is lazy, will shifting their nose 2 degrees right of center over the shaft at a height of 6.34 inches eliminate the crossover variable, or should they simply stroke with a slightly slower back swing and longer follow through when they want to draw the ball 2 inches to the right after a slight sidewards float, etc., etc. etc...................................

Catch my drift??

While you may really enjoy these kinds of discussions, and perhaps chuckle if you manage to draw someone into one, for me they quickly become tiresome.

Gotta run for now.

Have a great day.

Flex