Smash-break = slop

[stljohnny]

Johnny-thanks for taking the time to read everything and thinking about it. De-incentivizing the smash-break is key. Take the ball on the break out of the mix and the goal then becomes controlling the cue ball, controlling the 1-ball, and getting a good spread on the balls, all while hitting a random rack with ample force to meet the middle string requirement. This is good enough. There is much skill in all of this.

Because of the potential damage and danger, a cue ball rocketing off the table on the break should be met with the harshest penalty: Loss of game.

This argument suggests then the only thing that should be eliminated is pattern racking. If I can still hit them as hard as I want, assuming the CB stays on the table, I'm all but guaranteed a good spread. The only variable left is the position of the balls. And even pattern racking doesn't guarantee that. It only suggests that some balls will head in certain directions, barring any kisses off other balls; which *always* happens.

Controlling the CB is the key to breaking right now anyway. Watch one of those Donny Mills TAR matches, specifically the one against Shane... He makes the wing ball, literally 99% of the time (I forget the exact number, but it's something like 85 out of 87 times) and he gets a good spread on the balls. He's not soft breaking, but he's not HULK-SMASH-ing the rack either.

I can definitely understand your frustration though; as someone who's playing on the next table I don't want to have to worry about some idiot's cueball flying over and hitting me or my table. There's a group of guys that come in and fire every ball as hard as they can all night long; to the point where object balls fly off the table. But, I dont think there's any rule that can or should be put in place to rectify it. And I don't agree that losing the CB like that should result in loss of game. The fact it... it happens. It's like saying a baseball player should be out if he hits a foul ball, or a golfer should be penalized 10 strokes for slicing a ball. It's just a matter of life.

 

[Fenwick]

I would be willing to bet that there is at least 50,000 players in this country that can runout from almost anywhere when there is an open table, BUT there is nowhere near that can make a ball on almost every break, and even less that get shape on the 1 ball.


I'm not doubting your numbers but.
I'm being schooled by a famous African American player and he makes a ball on the break 90+ percent of the time. He's trying to teach me to do the same.
He's 72 years young and still hits the rack harder then most and I've yet to see him make the cue ball leave the table.

 

[Paul Schofield]

The rule you propose (breaker continues to shoot after a legal break even if nothing drops) gives too much advantage to the breaker IMO.

You would need something else to balance the odds again.

You are correct. Alternate breaks. It's in there.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Listen to the commentary on the pool videos and you will find endless discussion about so-and-so's "big break" or how player X's break speed is 31 MPH and on and on and on. Joe general public listens to this and goes to a bar or pool room to play pool. What do you think he is going to do? After all, part of being a good pool player is having a big break. The people that know pool told him so.

He is a rocket launcher

I will say it again: The smash-break is wrong minded and should have no place within our game.

 

[CarlB]

I have just read through this entire thread and the entire concept of taking away big breaks, breaker shoots after the break no matter what, is all ridiculous. Your trying to fix something that isn't broken.

When a golfer slices his ball to shit on the drive and hits a house, the gallery, you dont see people saying, that drive is out of control, golfers shouldn't hit a drive anymore, take the drive out of the game. Let em just take an average drive and drop the ball in the middle of the fairway and hit from there.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it.

The game is not broken. The break is not broken. Rack the balls, break the balls and try to make a ball, run out, push out, play a safety and just enjoy the game. If you wanna set up a gambling match, find someone who agrees with your method, write out the rules, and use em. but DONT force your opinions on everyone playing the game just because some locals dont know how to break correctly.

Again, IMHO, the game or break isn't broken, stop trying to fix it with ridiculous thoughts and rules.

Carl

 

[GetMeThere]

What are we doing incentivizing the dangerous smash-break with the slopped ball?

I certainly advise people not to sit around the foot of the table! I've seen high-speed balls hit a wall with chairs in front (right at head height) at speeds that could surely knock somebody out--or knock out a face full of teeth.

Problem is, you could stop REQUIRING heavy breaks, but it would be difficult to PREVENT them.

 

[softshot]

if you don't have a "Monster" break how will Paul Newman ever notice you.. and proceed to give you a magic never miss cue and take you on the road??

some of you guys watch to many movies

nothing in Billiards should ever be done "As Hard As You Can" IMO

 

[OUSooner]

I think we should take the tackle out of football and the ice out of hockey. The guys that wrote the no conflict rules are the ones that their kids are riding around with bike helmets.

What the no conflict rules are trying to do is equalize the games to the point that it really isn't any fun to be good at it. Its bad enough that all of the regional tournaments are alternate break just so the shortstops have a chance at knocking off a player. With no conflict rules SVB shoots no better than the 7 speed that cleans the tables at night.

If you have a problem with the break then make the monkeys pay for the glass. If you hit a ball OB and hit a house on the golf course you have to pay for the damage.

And you're definition of slop is bogus. Top players put a lot of time into figuring out racks and seeing where the balls go. Yeah occasionally they luck in a ball but every top player I've seen cuts the one ball in consistently. I wouldn't call that slop.

I'm sorry about whatever put you in a bad mood. But the majority of us love the game the way it is.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Guess Barry should pass out hockey masks for spectators at the Open.

Soon, more than 200 players, the best players in the world, will show up in Chesapeake, VA. They will begin every game with a “SLOP” shot. A “smash-cut-break out of the box” ensures chaos and slop rather than skill. We are trying to define pool as a “sport” with this? Don’t kid yourselves. Open up any Nine or Ten-Ball video on youtube and see what actually goes on. It is unsafe and is 90% slop. Any skills you see in all this are skills we don’t need. All the breaking acrobatics is not pool. Pool has never looked so ridiculous.

 

[RobDeBank]

one of the worst threads I have ever read hands down. I smash em at average of 22 and high of 25 I "SLOP" in balls and I love it. That's half the fun for me is to hit a good solid hard break.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Should I refer to your rules page ?

Well I have looked at them once, but don't want to go there agan....

Too may bad memories.

Now if I recall correctly, about half of my missile launch breaks happen after my opponent gives me a loose rack ! ! !

Sometimes a ball rolls off on my own spectacular beauty of tightness and whoops there goes another Waterford crystal piece , or Bubba's last good tooth...

I'M IN ! ! ! Lose the game and pay Paul a fee as well. Something about this thread makes me think you are about to begin passing the hat for something.

 

[ridinda9]

go back 50 years - there's more than 1 movie . . .

It seems as the sport has changed when it comes to the breaking. 10-20 years ago, I don't ever remember seeing a soft break.

Besides........ how would Tom Cruise ever got as big as he is today.... without that MONSTER break of his?

soft breaks were THE thing in straight pool (14.1). the ideal breakshot rolled the two corner balls to the rail , and back into their original positions in the rack .
Watch the Hustler- Fast Eddie breaks like this against Fats .

Now that historical perspective is out of the way . . . .
That power break , especially in 9ball , wins games - two ways . First , very few soft breakers are gonna pull off a 9-on-the-snap. Second , very few soft breaks are going to put down 4 balls , leaving you only 5 to run out . Yep , it's slop , but that's 9ball today (and for the last 30 years).
Don't like it ? Play a different game . Still lots of guys out there playing 14.1 . . . . .
Paul's complaint seems to come from a room owner's perspective - it's hard on equipment , there's a potential for injury , and it upsets the diners (?!?).
1)it's hard on equipment. Goldcrowns are expensive. BUT the players have been paying their table time , haven't they ? PLUS , you've been taking the depreciation allowance against your taxes , haven't you ? You could always ask those players to take their business elsewhere , I guess . . . . can you afford that loss of revenue ?
2) there's a potential for injury . Maybe you can have all your patrons sign a waiver holding you harmless when they enter your establishment - that's what they do at the self-service-salvage-yard ......
3) it upsets the diners . They came there to dine at a poolroom , didn't they ? Imagine there actually being some pool played there . . . . One time , I went to a baseball game , and that darn batter popped a foul right up into the stands . . . maybe he shouldn't have tried to hit at all if he didn't know where it was going . . . darn fool was probably trying to hit a home run . . .

Sorry , Paul , but this sport is about the players (and , to a lesser extent , the spectators) , not the room owners . You are , of course , free to set the house rules anyway you'd like in your house . Will the players stay ? Aye , there's the gamble . . .

 

[ironman]

Originally Posted by Paul Schofield
Because of the potential damage and danger, a cue ball rocketing off the table on the break should be met with the harshest penalty: Loss of game.



Nowhere have I written that you can't break em as hard as you want. Break however you like. As long as two balls break the center-string vertical plane and you keep the cue ball on the table, you get to continue shooting.

Do you honestly believe this will improve the game today. What you are going to promote here is pattern breaking.
The players of today would have this figured out and darn near perfected within two days.
In the old days a good break was vital to all good players. It iis far less an issue than in years past. This due to the alternating break.
Sure there is a lot of luck in the break. There is an equal amount of bad luck in it as well, on both sides.
I have no doubt in your belief and respect your stance on this issue, but i just fail to grasp your concept at all!

 

[Paul Schofield]

I don't know what you guys are reading here but your imaginations are getting the best of you. You would have to play it to understand what it all means. There is no reason to get upset but there is good reason to give it a shot before you discard it.

The best reasons to try it are because it is more fun and it requires much more skill than our current rules. It's better in every way (and safer).

I keep reading here in this thread about the perils of the "soft break". I think you folks are off base here. The rules require that two balls break the center-string vertical plain. This means that you would need to hit the balls hard enough for three balls to go past the center string. If one of the balls you are counting on to meet the requirement goes in the corner, you can get stung. The point here is that you really do have to hit them with a significant force. This would be called a "control break" as opposed to a smash-break or a soft-break.

The question still remains "What is an acceptable force to break the balls?" I say that the break should be a pool shot. The break should be hit no harder than you would normally hit a pool shot that requires significant force. An example of such a shot would be a long draw shot with a power stroke. That is good enough.

I will say it again: "The smash-break should have no place in our favorite games."

 

[justadub]

It just seems to me that you don't break very hard and don't like it when others do so.

I guess I don't play in the same world you do. Yes, I see a cue ball leaving the table occasionally, but like a "rocket launcher"? Really? Those people should be told in no uncertain terms to keep it under control. Just because there are a few knuckleheads out there doesn't mean you need to change the way the game has been played for a very long time. Room owners don't let patrons turn over the furniture, break the glassware, or do any other disruptive and damaging behavior, why should they let players hit the ball so hard it breaks stuff or hurts people? Who is in charge, anyway?

Remember, those knuckleheads (or anyone who doesn't keep the cueball on the table) are now at a disadvantage, giving control of the table to their opponent.

Much ado about nothing.

 

[Mike in MN]

My goal is to get a good spread and leave the cue ball in the center of the table. It's been working out real well lately.

Ditto. I stopped worrying about power and focused on a square hit. Power is relative, and to an extent, unnecessary.

Furthermore, trying to leave the cue ball near the middle of the table will work out in your favor more often than not.

 

[Mt. Cheverest]

"The best reasons to try it are because it is more fun and it requires much more skill than our current rules."

I disgree. I believe it is a GREAT SKILL to be able to park the cue and make a ball on the break consistently. Yes, there is some luck involved, but there will always be luck involved, even with your rules. You cannot take slop out of the game completely unless all shots are called, even then you can still slop a ball in a pocket that you called. I don't think you need to slam the ball too hard either, but if you can do it with control and be successfull at it, more power to you.

 

[pooltchr]

The simple solution would be to make all shots "call pocket" including the break. Spot all slopped in balls. Make players think about the break.

Steve

 

[alstl]

Conventional wisdom is: “The harder you smash-break the balls, the more likely you are to luck a ball in”. As a matter of fact, the goal of the smash-break is to luck a ball in. So, SMASH-BREAK = SLOP.

Get out your “break speed gadget”, measure big and SLOP in 2 or 3 balls or maybe more!

By far, this is the biggest wrong-headed thing that has have ever been done to our wonderful game.

We are not in an open outdoor environment (like golf). We are in the close quarters of billiard rooms, taverns, and homes. For God’s sake: What are we doing incentivizing the dangerous smash-break with the slopped ball? This is flat out wrong. The smash-break has no useful or proper place in pool (a highly skilled and finesse game).

I have been around pool for more than 40 years and have been in the business for 32 years. In my place, I cannot even begin to remember all the glass doors that have been shattered, not to mention all the windows. In addition, over and over, I have had to replace glass in my merchandise display cabinets. I have seen good players take pride in sending the cue ball straight up in the air to shatter 8’ fluorescent light bulbs. The weaker players just shatter the bulbs with their cue stick, trying to throw some uncoordinated muscle into it. Have you ever cleaned up after this kind of mess? Besides shattered picture glass, I have little round dents in my paneling and chipped Formica tables everywhere from the “little white spherical missile” (not to mention chipped up cue balls).

Eleven years ago, I decided that I would refurbish the aprons, legs, and stretcher, on all my Gold Crowns. A close inspection revealed hundreds upon hundreds of identical round dents, particularly on the aprons.

Lastly and most importantly is the safety issue. I am sure everyone has at least one story here. I have too many to mention. I had a one-eyed player get hit squarely in his one good eye. One time there was a party of six enjoying a dinner a good 15 feet away from a pool table just to have a white missile shatter a water glass, spraying the customers and their food with glass shrapnel. I have had insurance claims but have luckily avoided law suits.

Soon, more than 200 players, the best players in the world, will show up in Chesapeake, VA. They will begin every game with a “SLOP” shot. A “smash-cut-break out of the box” ensures chaos and slop rather than skill. We are trying to define pool as a “sport” with this? Don’t kid yourselves. Open up any Nine or Ten-Ball video on youtube and see what actually goes on. It is unsafe and is 90% slop. Any skills you see in all this are skills we don’t need. All the breaking acrobatics is not pool. Pool has never looked so ridiculous.

The front end of our favorite games is all wrong and needs to be cleaned up. The controversy surrounding it is not going away any time soon. The smash-break, slopped balls, pattern racking, rack manipulating, racking gadgets, and breaking gadgets are all nonsense and need to be trashed in one clean sweep.

For those that say “This is pool.” I say “Change it.” "Breaker shoots after a legal break" is the fix. Read about it here:
http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/noconflict.html

Ban the hard break in your room and when you go out of business and sell your tables, I might be interested in a gold crown if you are close to Missouri.

 

[ridinda9]

Ban the hard break in your room and when you go out of business and sell your tables, I might be interested in a gold crown if you are close to Missouri.

nah , they've got all these little dents , see . . . . . :smile::smile::smile::smile: