Smoking bans causes more DUI deaths
- Thread starter TXsouthpaw
- Start date
TXsouthpaw said:Whoooo that got some quick responses, gotta love living in a democacy.
theyve tried to ban smoking twice locally and its been voted down twice.
U have the right to not go into a smokey bar and i should have the right to light up if i want too.
this is gonna be good
No you don't have a right to kill others in a public place.
If you want to kill yourself do it at your home alone.
Oh and most bars are public and I also have a right to go there and not breath your smoke.
Your logic is silly I mean I like to pee can I pee on you at a bar? I mean you have a right not to go to a "pee on you bar," right?
You just don't like the law because you are addicted to a drug. Get used to it it isn't going to get any better for you.
Purdman
Banned
TXsouthpaw said:Whoooo that got some quick responses, gotta love living in a democacy.
theyve tried to ban smoking twice locally and its been voted down twice.
U have the right to not go into a smokey bar and i should have the right to light up if i want too.
this is gonna be good
You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions. Do you understand?
Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law. Do you understand?
You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future. Do you understand?
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish. Do you understand?
If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. Do you understand?
Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?
Peace, Purdman
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Smoking in public intrudes on the rights of others
The simple fact is that when smoking is allowed, nonsmokers do not have the option to go somewhere without smoke to do the same things the smokers are entitled to. I can't choose to compete in smoke free tournaments in my area for example. If I go to a tournament to play or watch, I have to shower upon arriving home. Next the clothes I wore are kept separate until they are washed because they reek of cigarette smoke. If I throw them in the dirty clothes hamper and forget them it is enough to make me gag the next time I open it. When I wipe down my case, tar from cigarettes is the main thing that comes off of it. The butt of my cue, tar again. I wipe the rails of the table down before I practice using a damp paper towel. It gets the loose chalk off but it is also to remove the tar that accumulates although this is a very well kept up pool hall. I hate sticky hands from tar build-up!
The number one reason I don't go to a pool hall more often and that I avoid them during peak hours except for major tournaments? Smoking! Smoking may bring in some customers but nobody really knows how many are lost because of smoking. I never go to a pool hall to play thirty minutes or an hour. It simply isn't worth the hassle of needing to immediately shower and wash clothes afterwards. I'd stick a few dollars in the coin tables I pass on the way home every evening except I don't want to smell cigarette smoke for the rest of the hour ride home. I don't want the inside of my truck smelling of smoke every time I climb in it either.
If there was a cigarette or other way for people to smoke that fully contained the smoke so that the smoker only affected the smoker themselves I would ignore the billions of dollars a year that smoking costs us as a society and say they can do whatever floats their boat. However smoking is an invasive act that does intrude on the rights of everyone around the smoker. My thoughts on all rights are that one person's rights end where another's begins. Smokers and smoking violates this belief of mine.
Hu
The simple fact is that when smoking is allowed, nonsmokers do not have the option to go somewhere without smoke to do the same things the smokers are entitled to. I can't choose to compete in smoke free tournaments in my area for example. If I go to a tournament to play or watch, I have to shower upon arriving home. Next the clothes I wore are kept separate until they are washed because they reek of cigarette smoke. If I throw them in the dirty clothes hamper and forget them it is enough to make me gag the next time I open it. When I wipe down my case, tar from cigarettes is the main thing that comes off of it. The butt of my cue, tar again. I wipe the rails of the table down before I practice using a damp paper towel. It gets the loose chalk off but it is also to remove the tar that accumulates although this is a very well kept up pool hall. I hate sticky hands from tar build-up!
The number one reason I don't go to a pool hall more often and that I avoid them during peak hours except for major tournaments? Smoking! Smoking may bring in some customers but nobody really knows how many are lost because of smoking. I never go to a pool hall to play thirty minutes or an hour. It simply isn't worth the hassle of needing to immediately shower and wash clothes afterwards. I'd stick a few dollars in the coin tables I pass on the way home every evening except I don't want to smell cigarette smoke for the rest of the hour ride home. I don't want the inside of my truck smelling of smoke every time I climb in it either.
If there was a cigarette or other way for people to smoke that fully contained the smoke so that the smoker only affected the smoker themselves I would ignore the billions of dollars a year that smoking costs us as a society and say they can do whatever floats their boat. However smoking is an invasive act that does intrude on the rights of everyone around the smoker. My thoughts on all rights are that one person's rights end where another's begins. Smokers and smoking violates this belief of mine.
Hu
chefjeff said:
You seem to misunderstand a few things.
First, private property rights are not absolute. Private property does not constitute a sovereign nation state, immune from restrictions and controls imposed by that nation which surrounds it.
As a matter of fact, both the federal and local governemnt possess the RIGHT of eminent domain so they can (and should be able to) control the activities in private property but they can TAKE it from you and in a democracy, that is as it should be.
Eminent domain is exercised for the greater good of the general population.
The number of examples of such just and necessary controls is nearly endless but to keep this on topic, children who have NO control over where they are taken by their parents, ought not to be permitted to enter establishments where smoking is permitted.
In fact, smnoking should be banned in HOMES with children under the legal smoking age.
I am a former smoker so I've been there, done that and feel genuine sympathy for those who have not been able to shake that pointless and dangerous habit.
But NO ONE has the right to subject helpless children to secondary smoke.
Furthermore, you suggest that activities on private property are voluntary and on highways, involuntary. That is incorrect. I have never been forced to use one highway and not use another...except in unavoidable circumstances such as construction and accidents.
Conversely, there are LOTS of things you cannot and should not do, even in a private home. But once the PUBLIC is invited onto private property then a wide range of necessary and proper laws, rules and controls are just and proper.
Few people complain about cleanliness laws that control restaurant owners behavior. The Libertarian view would be to have no such laws and when enough people get sick, then the place will close. Fortunately, however, we live in a democracy wherein Libertarians are a small, if vocal minority.
I believe government is bloated, inefficient, self-serving and in many ways, functions on no higher moral plane than a Texas bordello.
BUT...we elect those people and we deserve what we get.
And the TRUTH is, that we hate it when government officials prostitute themselves to benefit people OTHER THAN OURSELVES and love it when they do so for our benefit.
At the end of the day, the will of the majority prevails which is why Chruchill said...."Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.? ? Winston Churchill (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
Regards,
Jim
For the life of me I don't understand why smokers can't simply step outside, put the nail in their coffin that they so desperately desire, and when they finish, step back inside where those who would like to live a little longer will patiently wait for them. This does not seem like a difficult thing to do or an unreasonable compromise.
The analogy of drinking next to someone without effecting them is also spot on accurate. There is no legitimate comparison.
The same however may not necessarily hold true for those of us who don't care to listen to SCREEMINGLY LOUD OBNOXIOUS NOISE that some call music complete with F@$ING THIS AND KILLING THAT. So loud your teeth rattle and your concentration (which I always thought was a part of pool) is shattered to oblivion.
I suggest handing out free radio frequency specific headphones at the door, and anyone who wants to test the cement in their fillings can put them on and leave the rest of us alone from this pollution.
The jukebox can be tuned to that frequency and can easily rattle whats left of the brains in the heads of those who need this crap also.
I for one hope this is the next front for the Government to attack. Maybe, just maybe, they may nudge society back towards civility in the process.
The analogy of drinking next to someone without effecting them is also spot on accurate. There is no legitimate comparison.
The same however may not necessarily hold true for those of us who don't care to listen to SCREEMINGLY LOUD OBNOXIOUS NOISE that some call music complete with F@$ING THIS AND KILLING THAT. So loud your teeth rattle and your concentration (which I always thought was a part of pool) is shattered to oblivion.
I suggest handing out free radio frequency specific headphones at the door, and anyone who wants to test the cement in their fillings can put them on and leave the rest of us alone from this pollution.
The jukebox can be tuned to that frequency and can easily rattle whats left of the brains in the heads of those who need this crap also.
I for one hope this is the next front for the Government to attack. Maybe, just maybe, they may nudge society back towards civility in the process.
Clean air in pool halls is just the first step in taking our sport higher in the public perception. It opens it up to the masses that may want to play but don't want to go into that smokey room and come out smelling like an ashtray. JMNSHO
Come on down to play in sunny Az, where the majority voted to keep it smoke free. It's nice to not have to take a shower every time I play!!
Smokers if you don't see the writing on the wall...look closer. The majority doesn't want the rights of the minority to outweigh thieir own. You know you need to quit. Most of you want to quit. Just look at it as the first step toward that. BE HAPPY.
I'm getting my fire retardent suit on now.
td
Come on down to play in sunny Az, where the majority voted to keep it smoke free. It's nice to not have to take a shower every time I play!!
Smokers if you don't see the writing on the wall...look closer. The majority doesn't want the rights of the minority to outweigh thieir own. You know you need to quit. Most of you want to quit. Just look at it as the first step toward that. BE HAPPY.
I'm getting my fire retardent suit on now.
td
grindz said:Clean air in pool halls is just the first step in taking our sport higher in the public perception. It opens it up to the masses that may want to play but don't want to go into that smokey room and come out smelling like an ashtray. JMNSHO
Come on down to play in sunny Az, where the majority voted to keep it smoke free. It's nice to not have to take a shower every time I play!!
Smokers if you don't see the writing on the wall...look closer. The majority doesn't want the rights of the minority to outweigh thieir own. You know you need to quit. Most of you want to quit. Just look at it as the first step toward that. BE HAPPY.
I'm getting my fire retardent suit on now.
td
TAP...TAP to you and 3andstop.
From what I hear, the N.Y. smoking ban didn't hurt Amsterdam's business.
The fact is that only about 25% of the adult American public are non-smokers including A LOT of pool players who, like me rarely play out except in non-smoking events.
You may well get flamed. Very sadly, those who are addicted don't like to think of themselves as such.
Regards,
Jim
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
I think you've got that one backwards... :/
http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E/b.39853/k.5D05/Smoking_101_Fact_Sheet.htm
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ShootingArts said:
Check this out. And this.
They give you nicotine, but instead of smoke they use water vapor. Kind of makes everyone (every smoker) who's not using one a jerk, I guess. Hurting other people with their second hand smoke, when there is a viable, harm-free alternative.
And I totally agree on the last point, Hu. The idea that you have the right to hurt other people (with second hand smoke) because a property owner allows it is laughable.
And how about the people who don't choose to be there? Bar workers are hurt, but you can argue that they chose their jobs. Maybe you could argue that the beer delivery guy knew what he was getting into, also. But what about the mail man? He has to go deliver mail to every smoky bar in a row of bars. So the idea that you have to choose to go to smoky places doesn't really hold up.
And finally, to comment on the article in the first post. Just because people are traveling further to drink, does not make the smoking ban wrong. Choosing to drink and drive is even more selfish than smoking in a crowded space. The blame for those deaths lies squarely on the shoulders of the drunk drivers, nowhere near the shoulders of those who passed the smoking ban.
TXsouthpaw said:
The smoking ban doesn't cause more DUI deaths... it's the driving while drunk part that gets them.
I think cigarettes should be banned all together. It's a drug and it kills people. What else do you need to know? It's ridiculous that they still allow it in some public places... I'm glad they're taking steps to ban it.
hold on now!
lodini dear, I see you live in Miami. If you work five days a week and walk outside for lunch, you will inhale more harmful carcinogens than if you sat next to a heavy smoker for two years. Smoking is a stupid, smelly, disgusting habit, but to call second hand smoke "life threatening" is pure bulls**t!!!
Dick
PS If second hand smoke killed, we'd all be dead.
lodini said:
lodini dear, I see you live in Miami. If you work five days a week and walk outside for lunch, you will inhale more harmful carcinogens than if you sat next to a heavy smoker for two years. Smoking is a stupid, smelly, disgusting habit, but to call second hand smoke "life threatening" is pure bulls**t!!!
Dick
PS If second hand smoke killed, we'd all be dead.
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SJDinPHX said:
Are you saying second-hand smoke isn't life threatening? Are you delusional? Second-hand smoke kills thousands of people each year!
Here's a link to a Secondhand Smoke Fact Sheet from the American Lung Association...
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422
It should help some of you out in making more educated posts.
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422
It should help some of you out in making more educated posts.
TXsouthpaw said:Whoooo that got some quick responses, gotta love living in a democacy.
theyve tried to ban smoking twice locally and its been voted down twice.
U have the right to not go into a smokey bar and i should have the right to light up if i want too.
this is gonna be good
That's the classic Libertarian argument but like many arguments it SOUNDS right at first glance but on further study, falls apart.
While bars are located on "private property" they are HEAVILY dependant on PUBLIC laws, controls, licenses and inspections.
There are many, many things that, alternatively, you must do and cannot do in such public establishments.
Just a quick few, you MAY NOT discriminate. But hey...why not? Blacks and other minority groups don't HAVE to come to your bar. Well, why not is because you will go to Federal prison if you do.
And hey...why go to all the trouble of keeping you glasses clean and your food properly refrigerated. If people get sick, they'll stop coming and you will go out of business. The market regulates itself.
I could go on and on but see what I mean? You don't have to allow minority groups into your HOME...and you don't have to wash your dishes either. But when you cater to the PUBLIC the world changes dramatically and for good reason.
OK...how about the public vote.
You say that your community has voted down smoking bans repeatedly.
That's a tough one to oppose...impossible in fact because in a democracy, the majority does rule. But those votes can be explained if not overruled.
First, smokers tend to represent about 25% of the population so why wouldn't they get slaughtered in such a vote?
1. Because they vote as a block. Very nearly 100% of them will oppose a smoking ban. But non-smokers are a fairly conflicted group on this issue.
Some non-smokers are married to smokers and won't vote for a ban. Others have friends and relatives that own or work in bars etc. and won't vote to ban.
2. Inertia. Many such votes are in local, city/county elections where the voter turnout is even smaller than the paltry percentage of registered voters who vote in national elections. So, if 70% of the 75% of the population that are non-smokers don't vote...a good bet. and if 100% of those who do vote, vote YES then about 23% of the registered voters would vote YES, whereas 100% of the threatened smokers will vote and all vote NO. (I hope my math is right...it's late)
3. Rugged individualism. Just as I noted above, there are a LOT of people who are offended by government intervention into ANYTHING and a lot of those people have just not thought the issue through very well IMHO.
4. Border issues. LOTS of establishments are on or near the borders of municipalities or states and they know perfectly well that if THEY ban smoking and the city 5 miles away...or 50 feet away...does not, then a lot of businesses are going to get SCREWED...go out of business, stop paying local taxes and lay off all their local employees. That is a MAJOR problem and causes a LOT of NO votes on ban proposals.
Anyway, nothing I've said here is going to change anyone's mind so I'll just shut up. I just thought I'd present some issues as food for thought.
Regards,
Jim
Our local poolroom has been smoke free for about 3 yers now. Personally, I like the fact that when I leave it, the nasty stinch of smoke doesnt come home with me. As for it contributing to drinking and driving, its nothing people werent doing before bans on indoor smoking, but just another excuse instead of taking responsibility for your own actions. JMO.
Southpaw
Southpaw