Smoking bans causes more DUI deaths

[chefjeff]

Sure. If the MAJORITY of society voted to shoot me, then that would be OKAY, as it was decided by the GROUP.

Man, you are making this easy, cheffjeff.

Russ

Ok, I vote we shoot Russ...anyone else?

Btw, Russ, you get your one vote.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Maybe I'm not the best judge being a member of the US military, but I'm pretty sure the world we live in would end up ruled by whatever regime or dictator had the most weapons if we just decided to abolish government. Just IMO of course.

Now that's a valid concern. But why is that any different WITH governments?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Russ Chewning]

Taking control of someone else's propety (pool hall)by force is wrong; neglecting to be responsible with your own property (your body) is wrong.

Jeff Livingston

I must not have typed it correctly. I'll try again.

RIGHT and WRONG are decided SOLELY by the GROUP.

In alien societies on some far off world, it might be perfectly RIGHT to kill and eat anyone over 30 years old, due to massive overcrowding of their home world.

The GROUP might have decided it was RIGHT, because sickness/disease and aggressive competition for resources had become a problem.

I'm sure that there might be a few 31 year old alien dudes that disagree, but since they are such a minor part of the population, their opinion doesn't matter.

Booooo yawwwwww......

(edited to add) Just like on Earth, if we think that this alien society has it all WRONG (by OUR definition) then we may go and conquer them by force (pointing guns at their heads.. YIPPEEE!!!! ) and forcibly change their society. Sounds good to me. And if they don't want to assimilate? Well... More guns, pleez.

(Gawd i love debating with you, cheffjeff. You have such a liberal, unworkable view of what society should be.)

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

Ok, I vote we shoot Russ...anyone else?

Btw, Russ, you get your one vote.

Jeff Livingston

Sweet! I vote for not shooting me!

Now, all you have to do is get it on at least a STATE ballot. (Being as, the lowest court that can legally execute someone by current law is a state court.)

Heck... I'll even let you pick any state you want.

Russ

 

[easy-e]

Sweet! I vote for not shooting me!

Now, all you have to do is get it on at least a STATE ballot. (Being as, the lowest court that can legally execute someone by current law is a state court.)

Heck... I'll even let you pick any state you want.

Russ

I vote to shoot Russ also (shoot his nuts off on the pool table that is)
G**D*** I love C-players

 

[chefjeff]

I must not have typed it correctly. I'll try again.

RIGHT and WRONG are decided SOLELY by the GROUP.

In alien societies on some far off world, it might be perfectly RIGHT to kill and eat anyone over 30 years old, due to massive overcrowding of their home world.

The GROUP might have decided it was RIGHT, because sickness/disease and aggressive competition for resources had become a problem.

I'm sure that there might be a few 31 year old alien dudes that disagree, but since they are such a minor part of the population, their opinion doesn't matter.

Booooo yawwwwww......

(edited to add) Just like on Earth, if we think that this alien society has it all WRONG (by OUR definition) then we may go and conquer them by force (pointing guns at their heads.. YIPPEEE!!!! ) and forcibly change their society. Sounds good to me. And if they don't want to assimilate? Well... More guns, pleez.

(Gawd i love debating with you, cheffjeff. You have such a liberal, unworkable view of what society should be.)

Russ

I'm not a liberal (in the current usage of the word). I am a classical liberal.

OK, so you believe that the majority makes right. I never want to hear you complain about anything voted on then....OK?

Btw, the majority did not vote for the last president; None of the above got the greatest vote....now what?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Russ Chewning]

OK, so you believe that the majority makes right. I never want to hear you complain about anything voted on then....OK?

Jeff Livingston

Sez who? Sez you? Meh.

Until the majority votes away my right to complain, I shall do so as much as I wish, athankyuh.

I have every right within our laws to complain if the majority votes something retarded into law. That doesn't mean it's not the law. That doesn't mean I won't obey that law. I can b!tch about it as much as I want to.

Russ

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Too Late ?

Is it too late in this thread to come out ?

I started smoking several months ago and think these pro-con smoking threads are ridiculous.

42 yrs. old.

Bars and pool halls kind of cinched it.

As comedian Tim Wilson said, " McArthur smoked, Truman smoked, Churchill smoked. Smoking won WWII...In Vietnam we were smoking reefer and got our asses kicked."

 

[ScottW]

I vote we shoot both Jeff and Russ.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

I vote we shoot both Jeff and Russ.

No because the seconhand smoke from the gun might give me cancer

 

[ScottW]

No because the seconhand smoke from the gun might give me cancer

He'll be here all week!

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Fortunately KMRUNOUT is wrong, and the law does allow discrimination against certain "groups".

(Keep in mind, I am adhering to your VERY LOOSE definition of a "group" and "discrimination")

Government "discriminates" against people wanting to have sex with children, people wanting to marry their brothers or sisters, people wanting to have sex with cows, people who want to go in a crowded theater and yell FIRE!, etc....etc....etc....

When are you going to get it, cheffjeff? There are arbitrary rules on what is "right" and "wrong". What makes these things the law? The people as a whole speak out against certain offenses.

When the MAJORITY of society speaks out against a practice, and government listens to the people and bans that practice, then that is the law. Is this RIGHT or WRONG?

Well, depends on what you mean by RIGHT or WRONG. Every rule or law in a democratic society almost ALWAYS comes about because the majority want it so. RIGHT or WRONG is meaningless outside the group. The GROUP decides what is RIGHT or WRONG.

If the GROUP says smoking in what they consider to be "private property" (your words) is WRONG, and they have the power to enforce it, then that's the way things will be.

If the MAJORITY of SOCIETY disagrees with this enforcement, THEN there will be a rebellion, and the law is repealed. Such as with Prohibition.

As far as I can see, cheffjeff, the majority of society seems to be okay with these smoking bans.

And liberty rules, sir. Just as the poor cow is safe in most instances from the dude wanting to get "a little piece of beef" on a romantic moonlit night, so are we nonsmokers becoming more safe from noxious fumes whilst we go about our frivolity in the nightclubs of more and more states.

Russ

Tap Tap Russ. Well put and I agree 100%. Thanks for stating better what I was trying to say.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I must not have typed it correctly. I'll try again.

RIGHT and WRONG are decided SOLELY by the GROUP.

In alien societies on some far off world, it might be perfectly RIGHT to kill and eat anyone over 30 years old, due to massive overcrowding of their home world.

The GROUP might have decided it was RIGHT, because sickness/disease and aggressive competition for resources had become a problem.

I'm sure that there might be a few 31 year old alien dudes that disagree, but since they are such a minor part of the population, their opinion doesn't matter.

Booooo yawwwwww......

(edited to add) Just like on Earth, if we think that this alien society has it all WRONG (by OUR definition) then we may go and conquer them by force (pointing guns at their heads.. YIPPEEE!!!! ) and forcibly change their society. Sounds good to me. And if they don't want to assimilate? Well... More guns, pleez.

(Gawd i love debating with you, cheffjeff. You have such a liberal, unworkable view of what society should be.)

Russ

Russ,
I just encountered the "you must spread some rep around before giving it to Russ again" reminder of AZB. Otherwise I would have thrown more at ya. Priceless!!

You, sir, do NOT get the 3 out in arguing.
KMRUNOUT

 

[chefjeff]

Sez who? Sez you? Meh.

Until the majority votes away my right to complain, I shall do so as much as I wish, athankyuh.

I have every right within our laws to complain if the majority votes something retarded into law. That doesn't mean it's not the law. That doesn't mean I won't obey that law. I can b!tch about it as much as I want to.

Russ

OK, I agree, but according to the you, that ain't "right," right?

Objective law can only incorporate the libertarian concept....otherwise it is subjective "law," that is, politically-based. Once subjective law is accepted and voted in (and even defended on internet boards ), all bets are off. That's the condition of most governments today and why those govts cannot possibly solve real problems.

Our country attempted to implement objective law but it was quickly ignored little by little. Now, we have subjective laws designed not to protect the citizens but to control them for the benefit of the elite. The smoking ban, being part of the drug war, is just but one example of this process.

When a government declares war on its own people, it has defaulted on it objective purpose. Supporting such violence will not help.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Sure. If the MAJORITY of society voted to shoot me, then that would be OKAY, as it was decided by the GROUP.

Man, you are making this easy, cheffjeff.

Russ

Well the majority of the AZ society is voting and so far it is:

2 want to shoot Russ
1 wants to shoot ChefJeff.

The polls close a 6 p.m. If you don't vote you can't shoot...er, complain.

Seriously, there are over 6 billion people in the world....Do the majority have to vote for laws? Or do the majority of Americans have to vote for smoking bans, for example. That would requrie over 150 million votes for 'yes.'

I prefer it when people vote with their pocketbooks and refuse (or not) to enter places that they deem dangerous. That way, everyone can have things more to one's liking...not utopia, but better choices through business. No threats required.

Jeff Livingston

 

[JamisonNeu]

Allright I can't get out any more.

Look man the majority doesn't want to be taxed. The majority doesn't like gasoline fueled cars. The majority doesn't like bush and would like to see him jailed for his crimes against humanity. I for one never wanted a liar/drunk for president. The majority never wanted this war the majority doesn't want lead poison in our country. The majority is against religion ruling our presidents decisions. The majority doesn't like tourture.

The majority wants their writ of habeus corpus. You know the right of freedom they took away.

The majority doesn't want republicans in office yet they are there anyway. The majority is against our system what is the percentage of people that vote against those who don't???. The majority want heathcare for the 30% of their money they get robbed out of in the form of taxes. The majority is against china yet we do business with them every day.

I think I could go on forever about this last one. I might have lead poison I might have mercury poison I might have allumnum oxide poisoning. All cause my FDA is not doing their job. I am pretty sure the majority wanted there taxes to be used for protecting us from being a communist science experiment. Too bad those 1% need their money bad enough to disregard our safety. How many government appointed royalty knew about this before me??? Do you think they told Bush senior before he puked on the chinese dictator/prime minister. Or my favorite before his son held hands with the Saudi's (his boss).

I am getting sick, I have to stop befrore I puke. The majority makes decisions...Thats a good one.

 

[Russ Chewning]

Well the majority of the AZ society is voting and so far it is:

2 want to shoot Russ
1 wants to shoot ChefJeff.

The polls close a 6 p.m. If you don't vote you can't shoot...er, complain.

Seriously, there are over 6 billion people in the world....Do the majority have to vote for laws? Or do the majority of Americans have to vote for smoking bans, for example. That would requrie over 150 million votes for 'yes.'

Jeff Livingston

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff....

When you make me repeat everything TWICE, it makes you seem a little SLOW.

Just like in your hypothetical situation where you somehow think the AZ society somehow has the right to vote to shoot me.

No, the majority of the entire populace does NOT have to vote something into law. Only the majority of people in an official vote. Politically, this may mean a strict majority by numbers, or it may be a "representative" majority, i.e. each state has a set number of votes.

So, when your state senate votes in an public indoor smoking ban, and that's the way your state LAW says laws get passed in your state, then the MAJORITY have spoken through their governmental representatives.

If the MAJORITY of the citizens strongly disagree with a law, they will soon bring it to the attention of their lawmakers, and the law will be repealed. This has happened MANY times.

The fact that you ignore that laws have been repealed MANY times due to the will of the people makes you seem very disingenuous.

Your argument that free market economics is an effective means to control the behavior of dishonest businessmen is very very VERY naive. Businessmen (and women) have proven down through the ages that if they do not have government enforcing rules, they will take advantage of the public, without the public even knowing they are being taken advantage of.

Russ

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff....

When you make me repeat everything TWICE, it makes you seem a little SLOW.

Just like in your hypothetical situation where you somehow think the AZ society somehow has the right to vote to shoot me.

(snip)

It's not my argument that a voting majority makes right, it's yours.

Jeff Livingston

 

[SJDinPHX]

Peace !

Wow, if I read that correctly, it looks like you are saying people who are killed via drunk driving had a choice not to be around drunks?

Drunk driving is illegal. Drinking is not. Drunk driving kills people that aren't drinking. Drinking does not. Smoking kills people that aren't smoking. Therefore, they are making it illegal. Makes sense to me.

And again, no one is saying they are in favor of the smoking ban because smokers "annoy" them... if your argument truly is that drinkers "annoy" you and that's the same thing, then you have no argument.

Hi lodini, I am not trying to defend smoking. I am aware that it is a filthy, disgusting habit. But it is the only thing I do real well ! My mother died at 86, my older sister about the same, and they both drank boilermakers and smoked about 3 packs of cigs (or more) a day. They did that through all their pregnancies (9 kids in all) and we are all still alive and well, except for my dearest younger sister (who chose not to EVER smoke or drink) and she died of cancer at age 59. The politics of tobacco is staggering. If we were to abolish smoking and alcohol today, our government would collapse from lost revenues (sin taxes). I can appreciate your views on the subject, but you need to be a little more considerate of the 25% (60% in bars and pool rooms) that still enjoy lighting up. I firmly believe that we are prone to cancer, or heart disease, at birth. And the water we drink and the air we breath, has much more to do with our health than inhaling a few puffs of second hand smoke. JMHO.
Dick
PS Take a look at the Asian population. They are about 60-70 % percent smokers and their longevity is better than ours. Could it be they smoke first hand instead of second hand? The Italians, Russians, and Germans consume far more alcohol, per capita than we do. Their bars and pool rooms are thriving in a haze of smoke and smelly booze.(and they live just as long!) Thx, D.