Smoking bans causes more DUI deaths

[ScottW]

If a physical ailment stops you from playing the sport you want then maybe your in the wrong sport. Asking everyone around you to change just so u can play, Whose being selfish now.

Asthma (to run with Russ's example) does not prevent people from playing pool.

Smokers prevent asthmatics from breathing properly.

Nevermind the fact that asthmatics do not affect the people around them, like smokers do. I can't say I've ever heard of second-hand asthma attacks.

Your debating skills = epic fail.

 

[Pii]

If a physical ailment stops you from playing the sport you want then maybe your in the wrong sport. Asking everyone around you to change just so u can play, Whose being selfish now.

That would be YOU

 

[Pii]

theres a million things in your everyday life that r gonna give you cancer, or it could just be in ur genes. So as long as im here im gonna enjoy and if lighting up is how im gonna do it then thats how im gonna do it.

And you don't think you're selfish ? LOL

 

[chefjeff]

That assumes that said pool halls abut right up to public sidewalks.

All the pool halls in Colorado (where I moved from some months ago, and where a state-wide smoking ordinance went into effect last summer) are in strip malls or similar private developments. I rarely, if ever, saw folks walking by the areas where the smokers congregated.

That said, many rooms are able to let their smokers feed their habit on outdoor patios on the private property they rent.

I'm not sure of your point....Are you saying that malls are not private property?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

not around non-smokers. Go somewhere else.

MM

How about non-smokers go somewhere else? That is, each place ( a PRIVATELY-owned business) chooses its own policies and each customer chooses his own risk/reward ratio...you know, freedom...HORROR!!!

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Agreed! Seriously!

Accepting the use of force to ban cigarettes nationally means you must accept the ban of, say, pool everywhere. Pool creates degenerates, fights, gambling, cigarette smoking, drug hangouts, listless behavior, wasted lives, broken families, bad habits, gangs, etc etc.

What will you say when that happens?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

No you don't have a right to kill others in a public place.
If you want to kill yourself do it at your home alone.

Oh and most bars are public and I also have a right to go there and not breath your smoke.

Your logic is silly I mean I like to pee can I pee on you at a bar? I mean you have a right not to go to a "pee on you bar," right?

You just don't like the law because you are addicted to a drug. Get used to it it isn't going to get any better for you.

Why do you call a privately owned pool hall a public space? Is it because the public is invited into it? Or do you think the public actually owns it?

And, do you think the one who owns the pool hall can say who and who does not come into it? Or is that a public decision, too?

One more....If it is the public who decides* why would someone ever open a pool hall again, if s/he cannot control his/her own business?

Gotta do just one more question....Who owns your body and why would the owner put said body in a risky situation like a smoky hall?

Jeff Livingston

* How does the "public" decide anything? If by voting, then do those who lost the vote also lose their rights?

 

[chefjeff]

You seem to misunderstand a few things.

First, private property rights are not absolute. Private property does not constitute a sovereign nation state, immune from restrictions and controls imposed by that nation which surrounds it.

As a matter of fact, both the federal and local governemnt possess the RIGHT of eminent domain so they can (and should be able to) control the activities in private property but they can TAKE it from you and in a democracy, that is as it should be.

Eminent domain is exercised for the greater good of the general population.

The number of examples of such just and necessary controls is nearly endless but to keep this on topic, children who have NO control over where they are taken by their parents, ought not to be permitted to enter establishments where smoking is permitted.

In fact, smnoking should be banned in HOMES with children under the legal smoking age.

I am a former smoker so I've been there, done that and feel genuine sympathy for those who have not been able to shake that pointless and dangerous habit.

But NO ONE has the right to subject helpless children to secondary smoke.

Furthermore, you suggest that activities on private property are voluntary and on highways, involuntary. That is incorrect. I have never been forced to use one highway and not use another...except in unavoidable circumstances such as construction and accidents.

Conversely, there are LOTS of things you cannot and should not do, even in a private home. But once the PUBLIC is invited onto private property then a wide range of necessary and proper laws, rules and controls are just and proper.

Few people complain about cleanliness laws that control restaurant owners behavior. The Libertarian view would be to have no such laws and when enough people get sick, then the place will close. Fortunately, however, we live in a democracy wherein Libertarians are a small, if vocal minority.

I believe government is bloated, inefficient, self-serving and in many ways, functions on no higher moral plane than a Texas bordello.

BUT...we elect those people and we deserve what we get.

And the TRUTH is, that we hate it when government officials prostitute themselves to benefit people OTHER THAN OURSELVES and love it when they do so for our benefit.

At the end of the day, the will of the majority prevails which is why Chruchill said...."Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.? ? Winston Churchill (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)

Regards,
Jim

But I didn't accept those agressive terms....so now what, shoot me?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Check this out. And this.

They give you nicotine, but instead of smoke they use water vapor. Kind of makes everyone (every smoker) who's not using one a jerk, I guess. Hurting other people with their second hand smoke, when there is a viable, harm-free alternative.


(snip)

Yeah, a non-aggessive business solution!!!

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

I think cigarettes should be banned all together. It's a drug and it kills people. What else do you need to know? (snip).

You'd better know about freedom and liberty, property, and the horrendous cosequences of banning stuff, that's what.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

That's the classic Libertarian argument but like many arguments it SOUNDS right at first glance but on further study, falls apart.

While bars are located on "private property" they are HEAVILY dependant on PUBLIC laws, controls, licenses and inspections.

(snip)

Your arguments against liberty are always based on the unarguable fact that the government does anti-libertarian things. This is not an argument against liberty; it is merely a fact of forced-backed governments.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

"U have the right to not go into a smokey bar and i should have the right to light up if i want too."

I see this stupid remark all the time from smokers. My question is what give you first pick? If non smokers are there first do you leave??

I'm guessing not.

Excellent question!

The answer: The owner of the hall chooses who gets first pick.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Because the whole thing about "church" is peer pressure to treat your fellow man as you would wanted to be treated were the roles reversed. Virtually 100% of smokers KNOW it is not very nice to smoke around nonsmokers, and church is the one place you can't get away with not being very nice, without someone getting in your face about it.



So, I want to ask you a question, and I WANT YOU TO ANSWER IT.. NOT ignore it because it would make you look bad.

If I am getting very good at pool, and I want better competition, and my state happens to still allow smoking in pool halls, and the nearest nonsmoking poolhall is 300 miles away, are you saying I should give up the game if I have asthma and cannot physically remain in an enclosed area with smoke so thick you can't see more than 20 feet?

I just want to be clear on how selfish you really are. I mean jesus christ... No one is asking for anything more than for you to step out on the patio.

Russ

Are you saying the owner of the hall should give up his rights to chose who is in his property? I can't believe how selfish some people are.

Your turn.

Jeff Livingston

 

[BigDaddyInc.]

Not for the people dying on the road

Hell now it's a stall move. If you play a smoker now they put in a clause "im gonna go smoke after every 5th game or whatever god help you if your opponent is a chainsmoker in a nonsmoking poolhall. You may never get a set over with!

 

[Pii]

Excellent question!

The answer: The owner of the hall chooses who gets first pick.

Jeff Livingston

Not if there is a smoking ban.

 

[Pii]

Are you saying the owner of the hall should give up his rights to chose who is in his property? I can't believe how selfish some people are.

Your turn.

Jeff Livingston

What if the owner likes guns and has a rule that says you must bring a gun and every 30 minutes you have to shoot it randomly around the room. is that ok?

There are rules in place to protect us every where why should smoking be any different?

Frankly it should be banned period! Christ the ban crap that gives mice cancer and with cigarette we have a drug delivery system that kills yet nothing. Go figure.... I guess money talks

 

[JoeyInCali]

What if the owner likes guns and has a rule that says you must bring a gun and every 30 minutes you have to shoot it randomly around the room. is that ok?

There are rules in place to protect us every where why should smoking be any different?

Frankly it should be banned period! Christ the ban crap that gives mice cancer and with cigarette we have a drug delivery system that kills yet nothing. Go figure.... I guess money talks

All smokers should sue the tobacco companies. They made them addicts and illogical.
Joey~Know a lot of people die due to smoking.~

 

[JamisonNeu]

I miss the USA

When we lived in a Democracy you could smoke in your friends bar.

Now that we don't live in a Democracy you'd better do what your told.

Jamison Neu

 

[KMRUNOUT]

TXSOUTHPAW,
I hear what you're saying and I agree to an extent. The government should not tell you what to do. However, we as citizens of a democracy must not let ourselves fall to the paranoid way of thinking that the government is something unto itself. The government is the people. Thus, the people in the society are the ones saying you can't have smoking indoors (in this example). When you look at it that way, it seems a little different.

Also, you are certainly NOT allowed to drink yourself stupid. Public drunkeness (as defined by your behavior), and drunkeness while driving (as defined by your blood alcohol level) are illegal in all states. This argument totally fails. All arguments that take the form "since its ok to do X, it should be ok to do Y" fail. They are losing arguments.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

It sounds like you are advocating that people abstain from driving drunk? I agree wholeheartedly.
Imagine if people didn't smoke AND didn't drive drunk?

Again, logic is not the friend of the smoker, or at least the smoker making hilariously flawed arguments to support their addiction.

Ultimately the smoking argument goes "Even though this is unhealthy and will probably kill me some day, and even though it bothers people around me, I'm going to do it anyway, and you should get away from me if it bothers you."

TXsouthpaw, if you really believe that smoking should not be banned, you should seriously consider stepping down as the spokesperson for that cause, because you are making it too easy to feel "self-righteous". You really need to think through your posts a little bit.