Smoking bans causes more DUI deaths

Calm down Russ. I think you are still in the Army buddy. Still at war with me, and for nothing. I was not trying to put myself above you or anyone else serving. I was saying I think we have more in common than you think.

The airborne infantry has an 19 second life expectancy, I realize more than anyone else the value of everyone's role in the military. I would need to depend on everyone. Not just my squad on the front line.

Unlike what you are assuming, I chose to be in the airborne Infantry among the many choices I had. I also trained along some very intelligent, honorable, and brave men.

You might have got a bad impression of the infantry, I assure you more than not chose to be in the infantry. I think you should take a look at the scores in any random infantry unit. I think you would be surprised on how many did very well on the asvab.

About my honor and thoughts on people in the military, every day that I see the numbers of men and women lost their lives serving this country. I lose my temper. I don't think of what job they had, they all have the same job "soldier." I wish I could join again and yes, the infantry. Everyday all the way.

I never called anyone a leg, not one time Russ. Don't take that @#$% out on me. Some people thought the way you described Russ. BTW respect isn't granted by metals it must be a two way street. I know that you try and get people fired up it is what you do. I except it, as have most here on azb. I hope that you can realize I was trying to find common ground with you, not start some BS about which one of us is cooler.

Jamison
 
Russ Chewning said:
Yup. Bush won, fair and square, and EVERY recount verified this. If you REALLY want to know what the American people think of Bush, look at his results in the 2004 election, NOT listen to the very vocal few. He got more votes in the 2004 election THAN ANY PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY.
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Oh I love it when people bring up this tidbit and this tidbit alone.

Go to Wikipedia and do searches on "united states presidential election" along with various years (2004, 2000, etc).

You'll find that, in 2004, Kerry got more votes in 2004 than any other candidate in previous elections, as well - including the victors. Even more than Reagan in 1984.

Bush got "the most votes in history", and Kerry more than previous candidates as well, simply because MORE PEOPLE VOTED in the 2004 election than ever before. Partly because there are simply more people in the U.S. of voting age, partly because more people were motivated to vote, partly because etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Note that Bush also won by the slimmest margin of the popular vote in 2004 compared to recent (last few) elections, and even lost the popular vote in 2000 by about .5% - he won due to the electoral college counts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_presidential_election

Just hit that link, and then you can change '2004' to whatever and it'll bring up that year's info.

And thank you, Russ, for ignoring my "please don't bring politics into this thread" request. :/
 
JamisonNeu said:
Calm down Russ. I think you are still in the Army buddy. Still at war with me, and for nothing. I was not trying to put myself above you or anyone else serving. I was saying I think we have more in common than you think.

The airborne infantry has an 19 second life expectancy, I realize more than anyone else the value of everyone's role in the military. I would need to depend on everyone. Not just my squad on the front line.

Unlike what you are assuming, I chose to be in the airborne Infantry among the many choices I had. I also trained along some very intelligent, honorable, and brave men.

You might have got a bad impression of the infantry, I assure you more than not chose to be in the infantry. I think you should take a look at the scores in any random infantry unit. I think you would be surprised on how many did very well on the asvab.

About my honor and thoughts on people in the military, every day that I see the numbers of men and women lost their lives serving this country. I lose my temper. I don't think of what job they had, they all have the same job "soldier." I wish I could join again and yes, the infantry. Everyday all the way.

I never called anyone a leg, not one time Russ. Don't take that @#$% out on me. Some people thought the way you described Russ. BTW respect isn't granted by metals it must be a two way street. I know that you try and get people fired up it is what you do. I except it, as have most here on azb. I hope that you can realize I was trying to find common ground with you, not start some BS about which one of us is cooler.

Jamison
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I'm not still in the Army, I'm working as a contractor now. Sorry if I get a little sensitive about that sort of stuff, but I never liked the Us against Them mentality common to a lot of different jobs in the Army. One thing I wills ay about Infantry is that it's one of the jobs that you were least likely to get stuff stolen from you. Granted, some of that's because Infantry First Sergeants would not tolerate that sort of s**t, but I digress.

And I don't really "try" to get people fired up. It's simply that I have very very strong opinions, and it just so happens that a lot of my opinions run counter to most of society.

I loathe the show American Idol, for example... I think it speaks to the bully in all of us. It's just like making fun of the kid on the playground with the velcro shoes. In the beginning of the seasons, people tune in just to see people get insulted. And I think that appeals to the horrible side of humanity.

Just one example of one of the things that I hate about the America we are living in (Well, that YOU ALL are living in :) I'm stuck over here..) right now.

Russ
 
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Pii said:
What if the owner likes guns and has a rule that says you must bring a gun and every 30 minutes you have to shoot it randomly around the room. is that ok?

There are rules in place to protect us every where why should smoking be any different?

Frankly it should be banned period! Christ the ban crap that gives mice cancer and with cigarette we have a drug delivery system that kills yet nothing. Go figure.... I guess money talks
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Would you go into a place where guns were fired randomly every 1/2 hour? Would anyone? He would be out of biz in 30 minutes, wouldn't he?

Question: How will "they" ban smoking? Answer: with guns...how else? So, calling for bans such as this is calling for the use of guns to get your smokefree environment. I guess guns talk.

Jeff Livingston
 
KMRUNOUT said:
No Jeff, you have processed the facts incorrectly. Pool does not create ANY of those things. Individual people create those problems. You will find those same issues in nearly any area of life.

It seems most on these forums really need the 3 out in arguing.
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It creates it the same illogical way that your choosing to go where others smoke creates your bad health.

I was using the anti-smokers' argument methodology...the better verb would be "inspires."

Jeff Livingston
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Because the public is invited into it.
.
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So, would a house be public property if say the owner had a garage sale and invited all to it?

Or would the owner still have a say in what happens on his property?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Would you go into a place where guns were fired randomly every 1/2 hour? Would anyone? He would be out of biz in 30 minutes, wouldn't he?

Question: How will "they" ban smoking? Answer: with guns...how else? So, calling for bans such as this is calling for the use of guns to get your smokefree environment. I guess guns talk.

Jeff Livingston
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I see no problem with using guns to do what is RIGHT. :D So, therefore, i see no problem with using guns ("guns", as your euphemism for "law enforcement") to enforce smoking bans, as it is what the MAJORITY of Americans want.

By your logic, cheffjeff, using child labor is okay, since the kids want to work, and the parents want them to work, so it doesn't matter what the negative effect on the society is.

You figure that if people disagree with child labor, then they will not buy that company's goods. Too bad the REAL WORLD will never support the ideas of your utopian viewpoint of how things "should" work.

No.. Go ahead and dissemble and say how the majority of society saying child labor is bad is NOT the same as the majority of society saying smoking indoors on private property opened up for public use is bad.

Russ
 
KMRUNOUT said:
(snip)
No, because *WHAT THINGS ARE THEIR RIGHT* are the things that are voted on. If you lose the vote, then that thing WAS NOT AND IS NOT your right anymore.
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So, negroes are (were) 3/5ths human? That was OK by your standard then?

Jeff Livingston
 
KMRUNOUT said:
If the "owner" of the hall is planning on excercising the privilige of operating a business that is inviting the public in, then yes, at that point he is giving up his right to chose who is on his property. If instead he is not open to the public, and it is a private establishment, then I suppose that he can then choose by whatever method he wishes.
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So any old gang can come in and make the "owner" follow orders?

Jeff Livingston
 
branpureza said:
Ha, what other drugs do freedom, liberty, and property apply to? That's a joke. Cocaine used to be legal too until they wised up to it. In case you haven't noticed the ban has already started to spread throughout the country... I guess I'll have to wait for those "consequences" you were referring to while you wait outside until you finish your Salem Lights 100s.
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I don't smoke.

Cocaine is illegal, not because it is dangerous, but for other reasons.....Those are just one of the many unintended consequences of which I was speaking.

Jeff Livingston
 
Russ Chewning said:
I see no problem with using guns to do what is RIGHT. :D So, therefore, i see no problem with using guns ("guns", as your euphemism for "law enforcement") to enforce smoking bans, as it is what the MAJORITY of Americans want.

(snip)
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So, if we voted to shoot you, that would be OK?

Jeff Livingston
 
Anyone can take what someone says to an extreme and completely rape their intent and meaning... but you just seem to do it so much better Jeff.
 
Russ Chewning said:
(snip)
By your logic, cheffjeff, using child labor is okay, since the kids want to work, and the parents want them to work, so it doesn't matter what the negative effect on the society is.

You figure that if people disagree with child labor, then they will not buy that company's goods. Too bad the REAL WORLD will never support the ideas of your utopian viewpoint of how things "should" work.

No.. Go ahead and dissemble and say how the majority of society saying child labor is bad is NOT the same as the majority of society saying smoking indoors on private property opened up for public use is bad.

Russ
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Child labor is fine. I worked as a child on farms as did most of my friends...that might be a solution to many problems, come to think of it. My first job at age 10 was cutting corn (with a machete!!!) out of beans for 25 cents an hour.

I don't preach utopia....I preach freedom. Freedom is filled with problems, but the cool part is, it makes it possible to solve those real problems. Utopians attempt to "solve" problems at the point of a gun and then wonder why everyone doesn't buy into their utopian vision as more unnecessary problems accumulate. Meanwhile the real problems are left unsovled....some utopia!

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
For example, a group of smokers?

Jeff Livingston
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Fortunately KMRUNOUT is wrong, and the law does allow discrimination against certain "groups".

(Keep in mind, I am adhering to your VERY LOOSE definition of a "group" and "discrimination")

Government "discriminates" against people wanting to have sex with children, people wanting to marry their brothers or sisters, people wanting to have sex with cows, people who want to go in a crowded theater and yell FIRE!, etc....etc....etc....

When are you going to get it, cheffjeff? There are arbitrary rules on what is "right" and "wrong". What makes these things the law? The people as a whole speak out against certain offenses.

When the MAJORITY of society speaks out against a practice, and government listens to the people and bans that practice, then that is the law. Is this RIGHT or WRONG?

Well, depends on what you mean by RIGHT or WRONG. Every rule or law in a democratic society almost ALWAYS comes about because the majority want it so. RIGHT or WRONG is meaningless outside the group. The GROUP decides what is RIGHT or WRONG.

If the GROUP says smoking in what they consider to be "private property" (your words) is WRONG, and they have the power to enforce it, then that's the way things will be.

If the MAJORITY of SOCIETY disagrees with this enforcement, THEN there will be a rebellion, and the law is repealed. Such as with Prohibition.

As far as I can see, cheffjeff, the majority of society seems to be okay with these smoking bans.

And liberty rules, sir. Just as the poor cow is safe in most instances from the dude wanting to get "a little piece of beef" on a romantic moonlit night, so are we nonsmokers becoming more safe from noxious fumes whilst we go about our frivolity in the nightclubs of more and more states.

Russ
 
Hierovision said:
Anyone can take what someone says to an extreme and completely rape their intent and meaning... but you just seem to do it so much better Jeff.
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I'm not the one advocatin the use of threats to get the pool enviroment that I want. I like non-smoking pool halls; I don't like guns pointing at my head or the owners' heads.

A principle is a principle because it can be applied universally to whatever issue. That's all I'm doing with the principle of liberty vis-a-vis anti-smoking laws.

Jeff Livingston
 
Russ Chewning said:
Fortunately KMRUNOUT is wrong, and the law does allow discrimination against certain "groups".

(Keep in mind, I am adhering to your VERY LOOSE definition of a "group" and "discrimination")

Government "discriminates" against people wanting to have sex with children, people wanting to marry their brothers or sisters, people wanting to have sex with cows, people who want to go in a crowded theater and yell FIRE!, etc....etc....etc....

When are you going to get it, cheffjeff? There are arbitrary rules on what is "right" and "wrong". What makes these things the law? The people as a whole speak out against certain offenses.

When the MAJORITY of society speaks out against a practice, and government listens to the people and bans that practice, then that is the law. Is this RIGHT or WRONG?

Well, depends on what you mean by RIGHT or WRONG. Every rule or law in a democratic society almost ALWAYS comes about because the majority want it so. RIGHT or WRONG is meaningless outside the group. The GROUP decides what is RIGHT or WRONG.

If the GROUP says smoking in what they consider to be "private property" (your words) is WRONG, and they have the power to enforce it, then that's the way things will be.

If the MAJORITY of SOCIETY disagrees with this enforcement, THEN there will be a rebellion, and the law is repealed. Such as with Prohibition.

As far as I can see, cheffjeff, the majority of society seems to be okay with these smoking bans.

And liberty rules, sir. Just as the poor cow is safe in most instances from the dude wanting to get "a little piece of beef" on a romantic moonlit night, so are we nonsmokers becoming more safe from noxious fumes whilst we go about our frivolity in the nightclubs of more and more states.

Russ
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Taking control of someone else's propety (pool hall)by force is wrong; neglecting to be responsible with your own property (your body) is wrong.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
So, if we voted to shoot you, that would be OK?

Jeff Livingston
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Sure. If the MAJORITY of society voted to shoot me, then that would be OKAY, as it was decided by the GROUP.

Man, you are making this easy, cheffjeff. :D

Russ
 
Maybe I'm not the best judge being a member of the US military, but I'm pretty sure the world we live in would end up ruled by whatever regime or dictator had the most weapons if we just decided to abolish government. Just IMO of course.
 
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