Sniper Tips - Quality Change?

[be1163]

This topic may have been discussed before, but I could not find it.

Did Tiger change the way they manufacture Sniper Tips? I use to only use Snipers, until about a year ago when I tried putting one one and it was terrible to work with. The tips have seemed to go from a medium/hard to a very soft. I tried another one this morning and same thing, really soft and wouldn't cut, top 4 layers just feel off.

Any input would be appreciated.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Are you using a live center to hold the end of the tip? ...JER

 

[rhncue]

Are you using a live center to hold the end of the tip? ...JER

To take this thought a little farther and to clarify. I don't know if this is true in this case but I used to have a customer who kept returning every day or two or three with a layered tip that had delaminated. I guarantee all of my tips for life so was replacing them but after the third replacement, fourth tip in about a week I just gave him his money back and told him to find a different mechanic. He is one of these guys who think they can do know wrong so anytime something doesn't occur as he planned it had to be something else's fault. One of the guys he was playing every afternoon then told me that anytime he would miss a shot he would say there was something wrong with the tip and start trying to spread the layers apart with his fingers to find a problem. After a few bouts with his inspections a layer would finally come loose and he would exclaim that he found the reason that he was missing and then come and get a new tip.

The layers of a tip are glued together with a glue that is plenty strong enough to keep the layers in place and to keep from sliding apart. Tips are made to be the shock absorber between the shaft and the cue ball. each time you hit a ball the tips are compressed. This glue is pretty weak however when the tip is being pulled apart. this is not what it is designed to do. It just doesn't take much to spread them apart. It is for this reason that Jerry has stated that a revolving dead center needs to be employed when trimming the sides of the layered tips. While trimming with a razor you are spreading the layers apart while the blade trims the leather. This will cause an early demise of the tip.

Dick

 

[jayman]

This topic may have been discussed before, but I could not find it.

Did Tiger change the way they manufacture Sniper Tips? I use to only use Snipers, until about a year ago when I tried putting one one and it was terrible to work with. The tips have seemed to go from a medium/hard to a very soft. I tried another one this morning and same thing, really soft and wouldn't cut, top 4 layers just feel off.

Any input would be appreciated.

Where it "fell apart", Did it come apart between layers of leather, which would indicate a glue problem. Or did the leather fail between the two glued surfaces? indicating a leather quality issue? A picture would be interesting.

A tip should be tough enough to withstand an installation. Hell I bet if I turn one of my Hercules laminated tips on edge and hit it with a hammer, It would flatten out but stay intact.

This may help.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=30310&highlight=tiger+tips+delaminating

 

[iusedtoberich]

I've bought and installed several boxes of Snipers over the past few years. They all seemed of the same quality to me. Best results with snipers are a brand new razor blade, a live center when trimming the sides of the tip, and a bit of water put on the tip with a damp rag while cutting it.

I take it you only install tips on your own cues from your post? Snipers and other softer tips can definitely be trickier to install if you don't have a lathe and good experience installing the tips with it.

What tools are you using to install the tips?

 

[Cue Crazy]

I've found that a wipe with a damp towel, as well as fresh & very sharp blade works fine for Me too. I've had no issues doing these tips that way but bringing the live center up against the tip would certainly help as the others have mentioned. I haven't had to do that with these particular tips, but I have run into other tips that I did need to use the center with. I've had good luck with the snipers though.

 

[dave sutton]

Yes snipers are hard to work with if you dont know the proper install method. You have to keep wetting them and use a new blade....

 

[be1163]

Are you using a live center to hold the end of the tip? ...JER

Hello JER.. I'm not using a live centre, up until this point I have never had to. I have installed approx 200 tips over the last 3 years and have never had a problem with any tips or the method I use until this last half dozen Snipers I bought. Even when I was using Snipers on my cue, I didn't have a problem installing them. It just seems that when cutting them they do not react like before.

As for the method, I always use a new blade for snipers and most layered tips. I always dampen the tip, and run my lathe at a consistant speed. After I cut off the remains of the sniper I installed a Kamui M/S with no issue at all.

As for knowing where they delaminated, or being able to take pictures. I was tossed the tip so examining it know is not possible. I do however have two left, So if I feel like wasting another $10 I put one on then take pictures.

I will try the live centre to see if it helps with snipers.

Thanks to all that replied.

Greg

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Hello JER.. I'm not using a live centre, up until this point I have never had to. I have installed approx 200 tips over the last 3 years and have never had a problem with any tips or the method I use until this last half dozen Snipers I bought. Even when I was using Snipers on my cue, I didn't have a problem installing them. It just seems that when cutting them they do not react like before.

As for the method, I always use a new blade for snipers and most layered tips. I always dampen the tip, and run my lathe at a consistant speed. After I cut off the remains of the sniper I installed a Kamui M/S with no issue at all.

As for knowing where they delaminated, or being able to take pictures. I was tossed the tip so examining it know is not possible. I do however have two left, So if I feel like wasting another $10 I put one on then take pictures.

I will try the live centre to see if it helps with snipers.

Thanks to all that replied.

Greg

Snipers today are made the same way, with the same material, that they always have been. If anything, they are more consistent than ever before as our splitting technology (over the last 1+ years) has improved and so has our lamination technology (3-4 years ago).

Neither of those improvements would cause a tip to fail.

If you are using a tool post cutter. Don't. If you are using razor blades, be sure they are made of a very rigid material - and of course moisten the sides and top of the tip with damp cloth. If the hand held technique is causing any issues, the aforementioned live center would be a huge plus!

As far as it being easy/no problem with the Kamui, those tips (and most others for that matter) are made from pig leathers that are tanned differently than Snipers. Try cutting our: Dynamite, Emerald, Tiger (Med, Hard), or Everest's. Those are also made from a similarly tanned (our own special formula) pig leather - easy to cut.

Bottom line, Sniper's are finicky about install. Always have been; however a properly installed Sniper outperforms any other tip on the market. Minimal (if any) mushrooming! Strong grip! Great feedback! Long-life!

Note: coloring 'em black (sides) with a Sharpie is like putting a Turbo-charger on your Porsche 911 :wink:

 

[dave sutton]

hello jer.. I'm not using a live centre, up until this point i have never had to. I have installed approx 200 tips over the last 3 years and have never had a problem with any tips or the method i use until this last half dozen snipers i bought. Even when i was using snipers on my cue, i didn't have a problem installing them. It just seems that when cutting them they do not react like before.

As for the method, i always use a new blade for snipers and most layered tips. I always dampen the tip, and run my lathe at a consistant speed. After i cut off the remains of the sniper i installed a kamui m/s with no issue at all.

As for knowing where they delaminated, or being able to take pictures. I was tossed the tip so examining it know is not possible. I do however have two left, so if i feel like wasting another $10 i put one on then take pictures.

I will try the live centre to see if it helps with snipers.

Thanks to all that replied.

Greg

where did u buy the tips. Maybe they werent stored properly. I use a fresh utility blade. I wet the side cut then wet again then cut.

Lee at brianna sells a small concave live center. Maybe .400 od. I use that against my layered tips to prevent any seperation. When i glue i use that as the pressure for glue to set up also

 

[scdiveteam]

Laminated Tips?

Hi,

I own a very large pool hall and I do a lot of cue repair. I have come to a conclusion that when it comes down to layered tips, Moori are the only way to go. Moori tips are very consistant and a predictable concerning installation and playability. In my opinion all of the other layered tips leave something to be considered.

Many of the other layered tips do not measure up to Moori and I have seen many problems with de-lamination, mushrooming, and blow out. For these reasons, I do not stock anything other than Moori and will only install other laminated tips if the customer supplies same. Moori is the only layered tip that I guarantee. I am not in business to keep revisiting tip jobs that I have to do over at my cost. That never happens with Moori or other conventional one piece tips so why should bother with these others.

If someone or some company tells me I have to buy some special tool or I have to cut a tip in a special way, then I feel that there is some kind of problem that needs to be worked around to install the inferior tip. It's all about the glue in layered tips. I always wet and burnish layered tips between cut pases and I do not let them heat up by watching my rotation speed and cutting them with a sharp blade.

As for people liking Sniper, Talisman, Everest, or Kamui ect., I would like to state that the tip is a fuction of its hardness. If you like a tip with a durameter of 70 then any tip with a 70 durameter will play to your liking. When a player finds a tip they like they want to identify with a brand name not a number.

I could state a lot of things to attack some products but I don't think it would be fair. Stating the attributes of Moori is a better way to make my point. A pressed chrome tanned Triangle will play about the same as a Moori Medium. I usually tell my customers that to save the extra $ 15.00 and that's good advise. Some people like to spend more money than they need to and that's alright too! As for people who want a hard tip, I think the Morri Quick is the best way to go next to anything on the market. Nothing else compares!

Rick G

 

[GBCues]

Well, I hope I'm not the only dumbass that has a hole in the picture in his mind of using a concave live center when shaping tips - but it sure seems like the live center is going to get in the way of the blade. I can understand how you could carefully use the blade to trim the tip flush with the ferrule, but then how do you put any curvature on the tip with the concave live center in place?

Point me to a picture, if you know of one - ". . . is worth a thousand words".

Thanks Guys!!

Gary

 

[dave sutton]

Well, I hope I'm not the only dumbass that has a hole in the picture in his mind of using a concave live center when shaping tips - but it sure seems like the live center is going to get in the way of the blade. I can understand how you could carefully use the blade to trim the tip flush with the ferrule, but then how do you put any curvature on the tip with the concave live center in place?

Point me to a picture, if you know of one - ". . . is worth a thousand words".

Thanks Guys!!

Gary

you only use the concave live center to trim the sides. then you back it away and shape.

 

[GBCues]

Thanks!!

That seemed like the method, but had to ask - some of you guys get REALLY tricky!!!

Gary

 

[rhncue]

you only use the concave live center to trim the sides. then you back it away and shape.

Why would you use a concave live center on a flat topped tip? They are made for crowned tips, not flat. I use a standard revolving dead center that I put in a lathe and cut a flat on the tip so that I hold against the center of the tip.

Dick

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Hi,

I own a very large pool hall and I do a lot of cue repair. I have come to a conclusion that when it comes down to layered tips, Moori are the only way to go. Moori tips are very consistant and a predictable concerning installation and playability. In my opinion all of the other layered tips leave something to be considered.

Many of the other layered tips do not measure up to Moori and I have seen many problems with de-lamination, mushrooming, and blow out. For these reasons, I do not stock anything other than Moori and will only install other laminated tips if the customer supplies same. Moori is the only layered tip that I guarantee. I am not in business to keep revisiting tip jobs that I have to do over at my cost. That never happens with Moori or other conventional one piece tips so why should bother with these others.

If someone or some company tells me I have to buy some special tool or I have to cut a tip in a special way, then I feel that there is some kind of problem that needs to be worked around to install the inferior tip. It's all about the glue in layered tips. I always wet and burnish layered tips between cut pases and I do not let them heat up by watching my rotation speed and cutting them with a sharp blade.

As for people liking Sniper, Talisman, Everest, or Kamui ect., I would like to state that the tip is a fuction of its hardness. If you like a tip with a durameter of 70 then any tip with a 70 durameter will play to your liking. When a player finds a tip they like they want to identify with a brand name not a number.

I could state a lot of things to attack some products but I don't think it would be fair. Stating the attributes of Moori is a better way to make my point. A pressed chrome tanned Triangle will play about the same as a Moori Medium. I usually tell my customers that to save the extra $ 15.00 and that's good advise. Some people like to spend more money than they need to and that's alright too! As for people who want a hard tip, I think the Morri Quick is the best way to go next to anything on the market. Nothing else compares!

Rick G

I am not sure why, but the above is a copy and paste (except of that in blue) of a recent post elsewhere:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2131965&postcount=11

If you are trying to state the attributes of another tip, why is this in a Sniper thread?

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Why would you use a concave live center on a flat topped tip? They are made for crowned tips, not flat. I use a standard revolving dead center that I put in a lathe and cut a flat on the tip so that I hold against the center of the tip.

Dick

Is that revolving dead center flat-faced?

 

[rhncue]

Is that revolving dead center flat-faced?

Yes. It is about 11.5mm across it's face. This gives enough room for the razor to cut to the very edge of the tip without being hindered by the center. To clarify a little bit about centers. Many, even most posters refer this type of center as a live center but that is the wrong term. A live center is a center that revolves on it's own so as to drive something, it is under power such as a center used in the head stock when turning between centers. The tail stock center is a dead center as it is actually driven by the material between the centers. If it has a bearing so that the point revolves instead of being just static like a one piece dead center, it is referred to as bearing dead center or a revolving dead center.

Dick

 

[3kushn]

Hi,

I own a very large pool hall and I do a lot of cue repair. I have come to a conclusion that when it comes down to layered tips, Moori are the only way to go. Moori tips are very consistant and a predictable concerning installation and playability. In my opinion all of the other layered tips leave something to be considered.

Many of the other layered tips do not measure up to Moori and I have seen many problems with de-lamination, mushrooming, and blow out. For these reasons, I do not stock anything other than Moori and will only install other laminated tips if the customer supplies same. Moori is the only layered tip that I guarantee. I am not in business to keep revisiting tip jobs that I have to do over at my cost. That never happens with Moori or other conventional one piece tips so why should bother with these others.

If someone or some company tells me I have to buy some special tool or I have to cut a tip in a special way, then I feel that there is some kind of problem that needs to be worked around to install the inferior tip. It's all about the glue in layered tips. I always wet and burnish layered tips between cut pases and I do not let them heat up by watching my rotation speed and cutting them with a sharp blade.

As for people liking Sniper, Talisman, Everest, or Kamui ect., I would like to state that the tip is a fuction of its hardness. If you like a tip with a durameter of 70 then any tip with a 70 durameter will play to your liking. When a player finds a tip they like they want to identify with a brand name not a number.

I could state a lot of things to attack some products but I don't think it would be fair. Stating the attributes of Moori is a better way to make my point. A pressed chrome tanned Triangle will play about the same as a Moori Medium. I usually tell my customers that to save the extra $ 15.00 and that's good advise. Some people like to spend more money than they need to and that's alright too! As for people who want a hard tip, I think the Morri Quick is the best way to go next to anything on the market. Nothing else compares!

Rick G

Maybe its an illusion but the last Moori's I had were awful. The first ones many years ago were wonderful. I switched to Sniper mainly because several players I respect like them. The first ones I had installed didn't last very long. No de-lamination but they just wore thin fairly quickly. I had one of the tip guys at the Derby City 2 years ago put tips on all 3 shafts and I'm still playing with them. My favorite shaft will need replacing sometime in the next few months.

Different install techniques doesn't equate to inferior tip quality. The Sniper is manufactured in a unique way and for some reason need to be installed in a unique way. That's all. If properly installed, they're a fantastic tip. If not installed right, they're not too impressive, at least for tip life but while they last they're still a great tip.

 

[scdiveteam]

I am not sure why, but the above is a copy and paste (except of that in blue) of a recent post elsewhere:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2131965&postcount=11

If you are trying to state the attributes of another tip, why is this in a Sniper thread?

Cory,

I am sorry if I offended you in my post. As for stating the attributes of another tip on this "Sniper Thread", it seems to me that this thread started out as a negative thread about Sniper and problems that some have encountered with them during installation and use in the field.

I never said a negative word about Sniper Tips. Maybe if I color 'em black (sides) with a Sharpie it will be like like putting a Turbo-charger on a Porsche 911. I am sure there are people who will buy into that type of hype and sales gimmickry.

I can only go by my own experience and I happen to believe that the Moori Tips are very good and super consistent. I believe that was a relevant perspective considering the subject matter that was posted.

Rick G