I can't remember where I heard this but want to make sure its actually true before I tell my buddy to do it.He has a Radial pin cue and his shaft is pretty old and when putting it together there's no resistance.When he first got the cue the shaft felt snug putting it on,so here's my question.If he dabbed a cuetip in water not drench it and rubbed it on the threads inside the shaft would that make the wood swell enough to put that snugness back into the shaft when tightening and would it stay?Thanks:smile:
Snugger Shaft!
- Thread starter scsuxci
- Start date
I had the same thing happen with an old radial pin shaft. I held the shaft vertical, filled the thread cavity with water, and let it stand for a couple of minutes. I dumped out the water and shook the shaft to get out any remaining drops. After letting the cue dry for two days, it was a bit tighter when screwing it on. Not as tight as when new, but noticeably tighter.
Your buddy won't hurt the shaft by doing this, but I doubt that it will make any real difference in the long run. I have a number of radial pin shafts that have never been any tighter than a 3/8-10, and there's never been a problem with any of them loosening during play.
-Howard
Your buddy won't hurt the shaft by doing this, but I doubt that it will make any real difference in the long run. I have a number of radial pin shafts that have never been any tighter than a 3/8-10, and there's never been a problem with any of them loosening during play.
-Howard
Swelling the wood threads with water is a lesson in futility. It will swell for a short period but will not last as the threads will dry back out and return to their original, loose state. A much more permanent cure is to fill the bored hole with liquid car wax. Only leave the wax in the hole for no more than a minute and then shake all of the excess out and let dry. If you leave it in to long the threads will swell to much and crack the shaft. As the liquid soaks into the wood it carries the wax in with it and when dries the wax is left behind making a permanent repair. After the first treatment, if you want the threads tighter, do the same sequence a second time. Just don't try leaving the wax in to long at one time as the shaft will surely crack.
Dick
Dick
Hi,
Now that you have experienced a problem there is a lesson to be learned.
Corrective Action:
Next time buy a cue that has a threaded shaft insert that is many times stronger than wood.
Rick
Now that you have experienced a problem there is a lesson to be learned.
Corrective Action:
Next time buy a cue that has a threaded shaft insert that is many times stronger than wood.
Rick
Not the whole truth.
There are alot of makers who dont use inserts, what is the advantages over using a threaded insert? Phenolic can duplicate the fit of wood so I often wonder why there are not more makers doing it that way. You cant argue with the durability facter.
I don't want to hijack this guy's thread, but since you got it started, I guess I'll nudge it along a little. I too have wondered about phenolic inserts. Yes, they will wear better and you will have less thread tear-out. But what does it do to the hit? A lot of guys, me included, like to think that by using a big pin (like a 3/8-10 with a .312 minor) gives you a better feel, and gives you that "wood to wood" hit and feel all the way through the cue. It seems like a phenolic insert would dampen that. Yet, McDermott uses phenolic inserts in their higher end shafts (G-Core and I3).
So the obvious answer is "Gary, build a few and see for yourself." But at the rate that I build cues, it'll be quite a while before I can get to a point where I can make an informed decision.
So I'll put it out to the gang here: Does the phenolic insert have a positive or negative effect on the hit of your cues? Or none at all?
Thanks
Gary
Hi Gary,
Omega DPK used black phenolic inserts on their cues and they hit pretty dam good. That being said, I don't think the insert has as much effect on the hit as it does the machinability due to the higher tensile strength and the the modulus of elasticity delta between the wood thread fibrous structure and the man made material. Like you, I also use a big pin (3/8" x 14 modified) and use Garolite LE for my inserts.
Some players tend to over tighten their cue and when you have stronger threads, they won't tend to breakdown like wood fibers do. Then again you need a tight minor that is correct. We have developed a stepped minor machining procedure where the bottom of the hole has a tighter minor. The cue gets very tight just as facing occurs which benefits the threaded joint in the long run also. Another added feature is that the decor rings will stay lined up over time because once facing occurs, 2 men and a boy can't deform those threads.
We have always used inserts from day one and think it is a great feature element on any cue. It is also a great selling point and we have noticed that customers like this on their cue because of the reason this thread was started. The Garolite LE is a great material to use for this component and it also looks much nicer finished than the black phenolic. McMaster Carr sells 4' x 1/2" nominal size rod for about $ 20.00. You can also buy it from John at Atlas as a special order item not on the website. Atlas actually supplies McMaster Carr with it.
The costs is low and at the end of the day, the man hours only increase about 15 minutes per shaft. Time well spent from my perspective.
This is as much of the "whole truth" as I can offer on this subject as I have spent a lot of effort beta testing and refining this critical issue over time to measure results. To each their own I guess.
If you want to test inserts on your cues here is the spec. we use, I hope it helps. You can try it and if you do, I am sure you will like it.
Rick
The 1/8" hole is just a glue relief to equalize the epoxy out of the blind hole. Make sure you run the speed slow while drilling this hole as the material will burn at a fast speed.
Step drill to a 1/2" blind hole in the shaft and sand a few thou off the insert after machining. This is an old drawing, my new rev. 4 is not on photobucket but I am sure this will help anyway.
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If someone has tried tapping phenolic with the RADIAL TAP, he'd find out right away, it's NOT a good idea. Specially the slightly undersized RADIAL TAP.
I use insert on 3/8 11 ( not phenolic but a smoother hard material Zylr started using exclusively ) . I live thread it out then in then clean with a tap.
Radial taps were designed for wood . Unfortunately, you can't live thread radial threads. That being said, radial threads aren't supposed to wear out unless the user really abuses it .
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In reading this thread I notice a couple of statements that could use some correction.
Gary,
McD doesn't use phenolic, not for an insert anyway.
The 'i' shafts use a soft plastic insert, a poly of some sort.
The G-core shaft does not use a plastic insert. They either use
a metal insert or none at all, ie, wood threads.
I don't consider either shaft to be hi-end.
The 'i' shaft is expensive but I see nothing hi-end about it.
The use of a phenolic insert will enhance the hit of a cue, stiffen it up,
not dampen it.
The stronger the connecting thread, the greater the cue can be tightened.
This puts the joint faces in even greater compression.
The pin & insert in themselves have nothing to do with the hit.
The greater the compression of the joint faces is what defines hit in this area.
Joey,
The Radial thread in phenolic works just fine, some would say better.
Wood is subject to expansion/contraction depending on humidity.
Phenolic is not.
Threads tapped into phenolic will stay at that size regardless of humidity.
Wood will move.
I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that the gentleman who owns
Uni-Loc (Radial) approves of the use of phenolic for the Radial thread.
Gary,
McD doesn't use phenolic, not for an insert anyway.
The 'i' shafts use a soft plastic insert, a poly of some sort.
The G-core shaft does not use a plastic insert. They either use
a metal insert or none at all, ie, wood threads.
I don't consider either shaft to be hi-end.
The 'i' shaft is expensive but I see nothing hi-end about it.
The use of a phenolic insert will enhance the hit of a cue, stiffen it up,
not dampen it.
The stronger the connecting thread, the greater the cue can be tightened.
This puts the joint faces in even greater compression.
The pin & insert in themselves have nothing to do with the hit.
The greater the compression of the joint faces is what defines hit in this area.
Joey,
The Radial thread in phenolic works just fine, some would say better.
Wood is subject to expansion/contraction depending on humidity.
Phenolic is not.
Threads tapped into phenolic will stay at that size regardless of humidity.
Wood will move.
I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that the gentleman who owns
Uni-Loc (Radial) approves of the use of phenolic for the Radial thread.
I've used the liquid wax with good results also CA once or twice .
I've been using inserts on 3/8 10 308 minor for the last three years on both pool cues and carom cue shafts. I'm very happy and is my opinion that they are a small step in helping to create the consistent type of hit I wanted.
Mario
I've been using inserts on 3/8 10 308 minor for the last three years on both pool cues and carom cue shafts. I'm very happy and is my opinion that they are a small step in helping to create the consistent type of hit I wanted.
Mario
Joey,
The Radial thread in phenolic works just fine, some would say better.
Wood is subject to expansion/contraction depending on humidity.
Phenolic is not.
Threads tapped into phenolic will stay at that size regardless of humidity.
Wood will move.
I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that the gentleman who owns
Uni-Loc (Radial) approves of the use of phenolic for the Radial thread.
How many taps have you dulled so far from radial-tapping phenolic ?
Pic is one invented by the late Zeiler . Reverse threads, glue channel and pilot. Not phenolic but something just as hard. I only use them on 3/8 11 as threading it with radial is brutal on the tap. Can't live thread radial, so me no like radial-tapping it.
Shellac sealer with some thinner and magic oil works in sealing that tapped hole for me .
I think most of these loosening problems are due to cross-threading at the start of joining the cue.
Spin the shaft counterclockwise a bit then clockwise .
My favorite insert for radial is bocote.
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I also think so Mario, like I said above that is one of the reasons I would not change a thing.
Take care
I tried Dick's technique and it worked perfectly. It made a small incremental increase in "snuggness". I didnt need to do the second application.
In the past, I have also successfully used a light application of crazy glue to the threads. I have also done it and made it too tight and needed to take the shaft to local cue repair guy..:embarrassed2:
Live and learn I guess.
Ken
I can't wait to try it on the next shaft that comes in that way.