So what counts as a long run?

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?
 

RobMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty certain that standard practice is to set a break shot and start the run from there. That is how it is done here in the sticky thread I am pretty certain.


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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

Either way "counts," it's just a matter of how you'd like to do it for your own satisfaction.

In events like the DCC Straight Pool Challenge, yes, the qualifying runs must start with 14 balls racked and ball in hand on a break ball placed wherever the player chooses.

But in actual 14.1 games, a run starts whenever a player makes a ball, and that can be with any number of balls on the table and any degree of scatter. Mosconi's 526 started after his opponent had run 3 balls, not with a BIH break shot on a full rack.

For the AzB Straight Pool Challenge sticky thread, runs have been posted starting both ways -- full rack and open partial rack.
 

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
Pretty certain that standard practice is to set a break shot and start the run from there. That is how it is done here in the sticky thread I am pretty certain.


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Apologies if I missed something in the sticky thread that covered it. Quite frankly, I hadn't even been paying attention to that one.

My high run is 17, and came in the course of a game. I find myself practicing by scattering the balls and working towards a break shot (simply to practice shotmaking a bit more).

Appreciate the responses.
 

michael4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

If I start practicing that way (which is common for me), I just throw the CB near the middle of the table......you will always have at least one shot......

Spreading the balls, and also taking ball in hand, seems a little too generous a way to start, in my opinion.......also (as mentioned) fine to start a new run right after a miss, because you are not taking ball in hand, you are starting from where ever the CB happens to be.

[For someone who has never run a full rack, I would change my answer and let them start with BIH...so at least they can clear off one problem ball....]

Some of the very good players spread the balls, and work towards a break ball, not even counting any of the balls made before getting to the break ball.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

I think a "long run" is all relative. A long run to you is not a long run to John Schmidt. I'd say at your stage of the game just work on your weaknesses and don't worry about making long runs. Often your best runs come when you forget about how many you've made.

In tournament play, I'd say a "typical" long run is anything in the 50+ ball range.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

In practise I always start with a breakshot. In a match anything counts.

Starting with 15 balls spread all out over the table is kind of cheating ;), but it's your high run, the only one whose opinion matters is your own. I often neglect to count all together when i practise, I don't really take it as seriously as I used to (the high runs). I'm all about tournament results now.
 
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alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Either way "counts," it's just a matter of how you'd like to do it for your own satisfaction.

In events like the DCC Straight Pool Challenge, yes, the qualifying runs must start with 14 balls racked and ball in hand on a break ball placed wherever the player chooses.

But in actual 14.1 games, a run starts whenever a player makes a ball, and that can be with any number of balls on the table and any degree of scatter. Mosconi's 526 started after his opponent had run 3 balls, not with a BIH break shot on a full rack.

For the AzB Straight Pool Challenge sticky thread, runs have been posted starting both ways -- full rack and open partial rack.

+1 - Mosconi's 526 is generally recognized as the highest run although Mosconi said he ran over 600 once. His 526 reportedly began after his opponent in an exhibition missed.
 

Michael S

Registered
There is nothing more frustrating than being in the 30's and ending a run. Is it appropriate to continue the run and start over in the count--rather than starting over? Possibly getting higher than the previous run?

thank you
 

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
Thanks all.

My own long run was in the middle of a game, so I hadn't "cheated". LOL

I had suspected that spreading the balls with BIH didn't count for most people, and wanted to make sure.

I'm ata stage where I'm easily identifying a good K2, KB, and BB, and am getting fairly good at making it happen. My biggest issue is just making the BB and continuing the run.
 

K2Kraze

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yes, you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot.



Hey - no school playground rules allowed on the adult forum now, zen!

There "shouldn't be" any problem with anyone spreading a table of balls and taking ball in hand to start any run IN SOLO/HOME PRACTICE PLAY - which would be equivalent to an opponent taking their attempted break shot from a racked group of 14 and an ideal break ball and then missing the shot (even scratching on this missed shot let's say), leaving a scattered table with all 15 balls ----- giving the incoming player (you) BIH behind the head string. Same for BIH anywhere, really, considering the nearly unlimited scenarios a player can begin a table of 15.

Mosconi basically did the same thing when playing Earl Bruney on that fateful March day, 1954, when Earl made 3 to start before missing and then Willie began his 526 run.

An idea -- any player -- break a full rack of 15 any way you like, spotting any balls pocketed. Take BIH (anywhere you wish) and see what your "runs" look like on a scoresheet doing 100 attempts. MOST players won't be able to get 14 pocketed without a miss.....the remaining 5% of all players will be break down into 5 groups I'm guessing: those who can run significantly more than the other 99% (pros and high-level shooters); those who can have high runs of 40 to 50+ more often than just runs of 29 (like my mentor, zen can do seemingly effortlessly); and then peter out to the last 3% of shooters that can get to that key and break ball and even continue a run past 17 but not much past that....all starting with a scattered table and BIH anywhere.

I'd ventured we could even start a league based on this concept of a player having 5 innings of offensive 14.1 play and totaling the scores - averages even - for a twist on the game to get more folks interested and enjoy the pocketing and strategy side of things. Let the beautiful and exacting safety play elements come into play with a "real 14.1" game when skills develop in this make-shift BIH edition....

Just saying

It's your world ---- let your imagination run wild sometimes and see where it can take you skills-wise I say.

K.


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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's your world ---- let your imagination run wild sometimes and see where it can take you skills-wise I say.

I have one caveat for players whose high runs are something like 15 or 20 or 25. If you spread the balls out all over the table and then take ball in hand and run balls, you might get a new high run, but it won't be a straight pool high run, IMO. Those first 14 balls represent the bulk of your high run, and spreading them out evenly isn't straight pool.
 

K2Kraze

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I agree %, Dan - which is why I tried to emphasize that building skills in pocketing and cue ball placement (even during a BIH exercise in 14.1) can help work toward those key elements of positioning and planning the last 5 balls toward that break ball shot.

There are a few alternative strategies getting to the place where a newer or lower-level player in 14.1 doesn't get frustrated starting with the classic 14 rack and break ball.

And IF a low level player in that 15 to 25 range like you mentioned is indeed getting to 20 and 25, then not only are they playing well, but making at least 11 balls AFTER their break out shot.

Last thought ---- IF a player in league or tournament play takes over an inning with any number of balls spread out and starts with a decent first shot and then runs those plus another 11 or more from the subsequent rack for a total of 20 to 25, isn't that still their "high run" for the match / day / event IN a 14.1 event?

K.


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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last thought ---- IF a player in league or tournament play takes over an inning with any number of balls spread out and starts with a decent first shot and then runs those plus another 11 or more from the subsequent rack for a total of 20 to 25, isn't that still their "high run" for the match / day / event IN a 14.1 event?

I think the back and forth we are having is the result of calling 20 balls a "high" run. Whether balls are broken wide open or not for any given rack is immaterial when you are talking about more reasonable high runs over say 50 balls. Of course you should take advantage of spread open situations during a straight pool match, but I don't think spreading them out for the purpose of getting a new high run is smart. That is not to say you can't come up with some games/challenges like you mentioned where spreading the balls open could be a good learning tool.
 

SARDiver

JCC Chief
Silver Member
I have one caveat for players whose high runs are something like 15 or 20 or 25. If you spread the balls out all over the table and then take ball in hand and run balls, you might get a new high run, but it won't be a straight pool high run, IMO. Those first 14 balls represent the bulk of your high run, and spreading them out evenly isn't straight pool.

I agree with this, which is sorta what drove the question. (Hey, if others were doing it, I wanted to know! LOL)

Mostly I've been taking the practice positions in Phil Capelle's book...a five or so run to the break ball...in order to practice CB position. That's helped tremendously. Playing against the "book" version of the run out and executing that. What I plan to do is set those up to a BB, then re-rack and practice shot making. I can run a rack of 9 ball pretty regularly, but moving around the table in 14.1 is a fun challenge.

It's very gratifying to see the need for a secondary breakshot, execute it, and run.

My 17 ball run was 2 balls to a new break, the next rack, and then a made break shot that didn't hit the stack, so I played safe from there. Hope to improve on that this year.
 

john coloccia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a great player...my high run is 35, and I'll generally get somewhere around 15 any given match. So not really good my any means, but not really a bar banger either.

But I'll say that two things that have really improved my game strategy wise are:

1) Rempe's brainwash drill. I can actually execute that successfully every now and then, but it took a while

2) I scatter balls and start shooting, but I specifically look for really tight cue ball routes. I don't even care about position. I just play around trying to see if I can sneak between balls, bump balls precisely, etc. This one thing has really helped me see the easy cue ball routes. Where before I'd try to force the cue ball around using "safe" routes, I've gotten a lot more comfortable sneaking around with a little bit of finesse. Getting around with less power and finesse has definitely helped me avoid stupid misses from just shooting way harder than really necessary.

Anyhow, it's been helping me. Probably won't work for everyone, and most of you guys are probably beyond this beginner level anyhow. It just came to mind when we talked about scattering balls. I found a way to make it more interesting when I'm just playing by myself. :)
 

K2Kraze

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here is a SOLO or match-play scoring game/exercise for anyone working on developing their 14.1 game as a new player or a way to enjoy "practice play" and find out what your averages are in practice ---- incorporates both elements of scoring and starting each new rack or inning with a break ball you set up. Many of you may recall Earl Strickland talking about this practice game many years ago.

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If anyone would like a pdf copy for their game collection, send me a private message with your email and I'd be happy to send you one.

K.
 

Dan Harriman

One of the best in 14.1
Silver Member
What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

What I mean is, if I scatter the balls on my table, take ball in hand to begin, and run out, then go into the next rack as normal, does that count?

Or do you have to start with a 14 ball rack and a break shot?

This actually not a bad question, practice your game in segments is my answer. A good example of this - I saw a top player once out west who practiced similar traditional ball in hand break shots for over an hour. Once he made the break shot - he looked at how well the rack developed and then re-racked for another ball in hand break shot. This takes much discipline as you will want to see how many your capable of running, once you see your not missing the ball in hand break and or takin eye off ball - you can then begin to determine your long run. A standard break shot is a good place to start ( this is the beginning of phase one). Phase three would be to place four or five balls near the rack area, with ball in hand, work on end game pattern. if you miss the ball in hand break shot and decide to keep shooting i would say your ignoring a problem. If you are already a fifty ball runner then it's certain you should replace break shot and try to figure out why the miss. hope this helps. If you have not yet run fifty then like k2 stated - then just practice. Remember while practicing straight pool you won't see too many frames where the balls are scattered throughout the entire table. Plus a big part of getting past fifty is realizing there are many secondary' break shots, so you will need to become familiar with as you say a 14 ball rack break shot in order to get to fifty. Running fifty is not a small accomplishment in my opinion.
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have one caveat for players whose high runs are something like 15 or 20 or 25. If you spread the balls out all over the table and then take ball in hand and run balls, you might get a new high run, but it won't be a straight pool high run, IMO. Those first 14 balls represent the bulk of your high run, and spreading them out evenly isn't straight pool.

Good point. I can spread the balls over the table, take BIH and run them about every time. My record doing this on a 9ft diamond is 8 racks, missing out on 9 racks by just a couple of balls. When doing this I don't count balls pocketed ....I count racks completed. It's not 14.1. My record in 14.1 is just over 70. I've had runs of 40 to 50 in match play, but it's not often because the balls are seldom scattered out for easy picking. You have to work the rack. Simply spreading the balls out and shooting them in involves minimal work, imo. It's a good way to get in tune though, provided you pay attention and focus on each shot.
 
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