So what is considered a high end cue ?

Interesting post, opinions and comments, but I believe in the end, there will be no conclusion and once again Mike it will lead nowhere.

But since you asked, I believe here at our Forum 'High End' is all about the Ca$h, Builder, and History.


Have a good day:groucho:

-Kat,
 
jasonlaus said:
I'm not sure where you live and I haven't played in abou 5/6 months, but if you're close I'd be more than happy to play some sets with you to show you that I do understand playabillity of a cue.
Jason

I'm in Baltimore right now
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I certainly didn't imply that you don't "understand" playability. Only that the definitions you are using to define "high end" does not adequately account for playability.

I live in Ottawa, Canada. It's highly unlikely that I'll be down your ways anytime in the near future, but if you are ever up here for whatever reason, feel free to PM we, I'd be happy to shoot some racks with ya. We have a couple of good halls here. :)
 
Bigb'scues said:
High end is not relative to $ imo

I.e. A regular standard Gus is about 7-10k still very expensive but a "high end" Gus can be 100k


High end to me is when a cue maker steps out of their simple designs and add exotic materials and construction. The price of the high end stuff for any cue make will be proportional to what their cues command
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I agree with this exactly.

A "high end" cue differs depending on the maker and has nothing to do with the price relative to the cue market as a whole.

Saying "this is a high end Gus" means relative to other Gus cues it is beyond the norm. That has meaning.

Saying "this is a high end cue" is usually meaningless banter. People say that about a plain SW when it is sitting in a case full of Predator and Meucci, but it is not a high end SW and would be a "low end cue siting in a case with heavily inlaid Franklin era SW's, TAD's, and elaborate Gina Cues.

The only time "this is a high end cue" truly has merit is when the cue is a high end example of cue from a known high end maker. A ivory handle Gina Cue with 350 inlays of silver, gold , malachite, ect... is "high end" in any company.
 
My playing cue is a Ted Harris - I'm under no illusion that it is a high end cue even though it is my favorite and only cue I play with.

I have a Szamboti, Tad, Richard Black, and Searing(JB) in the closet and I don't play with anyn of them. The only one considered high end would be the Szam and it's a 4 point with windows in buttsleve, which could be and should be debatable.

I'm not butthurt, I'm a realist, and facts are facts.

I've owned 13 Searing, 3 Szams, 3 Haleys, 3 Richard Blacks, Manzino, Southwest, Scruggs, etc. There is a difference in quality between all these makers, no matter how bad I would want them all to be high end - they are not.

As far as playability I had Ted change the taper on my shafts to fit the way I PLAY.

I would give it at least a 9 in playability probably 10, but that doesn't make it high end no matter how bad anybody wants it to be.
Jason
 
MuchoBurrito said:
I certainly didn't imply that you don't "understand" playability. Only that the definitions you are using to define "high end" does not adequately account for playability.

I live in Ottawa, Canada. It's highly unlikely that I'll be down your ways anytime in the near future, but if you are ever up here for whatever reason, feel free to PM we, I'd be happy to shoot some racks with ya. We have a couple of good halls here. :)
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Thanks for the offer :) will get ahold if you if I get that way.

Correct! I don't feel that there is any way to "prove" playability and in most cases shouldn't be taken into consideration. I've had cues in the 6 - 8k range that I felt played terrible, somebody else may love the hit.
 
A high end cue is one so valuable to it's owner that it gets little or no use.

Kind of sad....but there it is.
 
Take SW for example, I would say we're(AZB) about 50/50 on playability. Some hate them others love them.

Great customer service and a solid business - 3-4.5k price range(after market) but they all look similar. Does that make them high end? Not picking on them. Like I said, a great business. I would say they are like Rolex in the watch market - higher end but not anywhere close to the top guys getting 100k to the millions for a watch.
Jason
 
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HawaiianEye said:
Some people with "high-end" cues play "low-end" pool.

A good player can play "high-end" pool with a "low-end" cue.
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to me High End or Low end is relative to what your talking about

An 800 Dollar Viking could be considered high end in comparison to a 200 dollar Viking

A 25k Gus could be considered high end compared to a 7K Gus

I Agree with HawianEye in his quote above

the price of a cue to me is not nearly as important as how it plays for me ,

I have a couple of custom cues in the range of 2k that do not play as well for me as my meucci original merry widow which was my first cue, which by the way back in the 80s was was known as a meucci low end

I am not a collector in the sense that I buy cues for their possibility of going up in Value , I only have a bout 14 cues and all are players being that all have been played with for some stretch of time that I have owned them , as with anything I have my favorites that see more play than others
 
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jasonlaus said:
My playing cue is a Ted Harris - I'm under no illusion that it is a high end cue even though it is my favorite and only cue I play with.

I have a Szamboti, Tad, Richard Black, and Searing(JB) in the closet and I don't play with anyn of them. The only one considered high end would be the Szam and it's a 4 point with windows in buttsleve, which could be and should be debatable.

I'm not butthurt, I'm a realist, and facts are facts.

I've owned 13 Searing, 3 Szams, 3 Haleys, 3 Richard Blacks, Manzino, Southwest, Scruggs, etc. There is a difference in quality between all these makers, no matter how bad I would want them all to be high end - they are not.

As far as playability I had Ted change the taper on my shafts to fit the way I PLAY.

I would give it at least a 9 in playability probably 10, but that doesn't make it high end no matter how bad anybody wants it to be.
Jason
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Well you've definitely got me out-cued in the cue buying department. I play with a couple of predators, and have no interest in looking into a collectible. (except possibly as an investment.)

Here's the golf analogy: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-75000-set-of-golf-clubs-2013-05-31

Now, these are obviously "high end" clubs. That being said, a $600 production line Callaway is still very much a "high end" club, even though it doesn't cost $75,000. It plays great, it's the club of choice for countless pro's, it has intrinsic properties that are objectively superior to other clubs, etc.

The fact is that whatever activity or sport we're talking about, you can pay what you want for an item. That would be true of frisbee, philately, wine, golf, etc... The market puts a price on things that reflect an aggregate of properties (including rarity, marketing, status, previous ownerships, etc...) that are unrelated to the intrinsic properties of said item, a premium is placed on these properties in order to purchase status. Which is fine, that is the way the world works.

The mistake is in saying that the Callaway isn't a high end club, because it's "only" $600 or $700, where as you CAN pay $75,000 for a custom Honma. Well, you "can" pay whatever you want for an item. The fact that some people want to pay $75,000 for a Honma doesn't mean that a $700 Callaway is not high end.
 
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MuchoBurrito said:
Well, as Jason pointed out, the market sets prices. Sometimes those prices correlate with certain aspects of quality, other times it simply reflects the degree to which a small clique of people covet the item as a signal of status.

In wine, there is no bottle of wine that costs more than $20 to produce (I have wine makers and sommeliers in my family), yet they can sell for thousands of dollars. The fact is that in clinical trials, even trained sommeliers cannot distinguish expensive from relatively inexpensive wine (once you get over the $20 a bottle threshold).

The reason bottles sell for thousands of dollars has nothing to do with the intrinsic properties of the wine. Studies show people can't taste the difference (that's actually empirically verified), the market (ie. a small clique of people who use wine to signify status) are paying a premium for said status. They stopped paying for wine at around $40 or $50.

And I do love wine btw, especially Valpolicella, I am not slamming wine here any more than I'm trying to diminish the beauty of a priceless custom cue. I'm certainly NOT saying that it's not "high end".
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$20 huh... Ask any wine maker to make only 15 bottles of wine a year and see how much each cost.....Even at your analogy, don't forget about the time, materials, labor, equipment, etc..needed to make that "$20" bottle of wine... The ONLY way it gets 'there' is BECAUSE of volume...In "normal" custom cue construction lets say there's $250 to $600 in materials. After that take into consideration, the makers time, technique, knowledge, and desirability (consisting of many factors), AND THEN yearly output and that $250 can easily turn into $6000 and deservedly so as the "market" will bare IF that maker has passed the scrutiny of those who KNOW what their looking at.

"High End" determination is for the "Cognoscenti"... If you don't know what the word means go look it up....
 
jasonlaus said:
Just like a Ferrari is a "cute" car to girls? Doesn't change the fact that it is high end.
Jason

Btw, I'm off work till at least January so I have nothing better to do:eek:
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You guys have not spent enough time with cars, when you do you will learn that every car ever built is an incredible piece of shit.:angry:
 
jasonlaus said:
My playing cue is a Ted Harris - I'm under no illusion that it is a high end cue even though it is my favorite and only cue I play with.

I have a Szamboti, Tad, Richard Black, and Searing(JB) in the closet and I don't play with anyn of them. The only one considered high end would be the Szam and it's a 4 point with windows in buttsleve, which could be and should be debatable.

I'm not butthurt, I'm a realist, and facts are facts.

I've owned 13 Searing, 3 Szams, 3 Haleys, 3 Richard Blacks, Manzino, Southwest, Scruggs, etc. There is a difference in quality between all these makers, no matter how bad I would want them all to be high end - they are not.

As far as playability I had Ted change the taper on my shafts to fit the way I PLAY.

I would give it at least a 9 in playability probably 10, but that doesn't make it high end no matter how bad anybody wants it to be.
Jason
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What you said is the reason I'm waiting for my TH rather than spending the same money to get a used "high end" cue from the sale forum. Can't wait!
 
A high end cue to me is a cue that costs more than what I am willing to spend on a cue which tops out at about $1500.00
None of my $500-$1000 cues seem to make me play any better than a 1 piece bar cue, until I find a cue that actually improves my game no cue is worth over $1500
 
MuchoBurrito said:
Well you've definitely got me out-cued in the cue buying department. I play with a couple of predators, and have no interest in looking into a collectible. (except possibly as an investment.)

Here's the golf analogy: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-75000-set-of-golf-clubs-2013-05-31

Now, these are obviously "high end" clubs. That being said, a $600 production line Callaway is still very much a "high end" club, even though it doesn't cost $75,000. It plays great, it's the club of choice for countless pro's, it has intrinsic properties that are objectively superior to other clubs, etc.

The fact is that whatever activity or sport we're talking about, you can pay what you want for an item. That would be true of frisbee, philately, wine, golf, etc... The market puts a price on things that reflect an aggregate of properties (including rarity, marketing, status, previous ownerships, etc...) that are unrelated to the intrinsic properties of said item, a premium is placed on these properties in order to purchase status. Which is fine, that is the way the world works.

The mistake is in saying that the Callaway isn't a high end club, because it's "only" $600 or $700, where as you CAN pay $75,000 for a custom Honma. Well, you "can" pay whatever you want for an item. The fact that some people want to pay $75,000 for a Honma doesn't mean that a $700 Callaway is not high end.
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I guess the disconnect is that we for the most part are not talking about playability except that most of the high end cues became know for their playability and as such the price and desirability went up.

I could argue that the 333 series meucci I had was the best playing cue I ever had bar none. If I could get it back, that would be the most "valuable" cue for me.

My T Harris is playing closer to that then any other cue I have, so I guess it is my most "valuable".

I also realize that my Szam IS the most valuable cue I own currently. It doesn't play bad, in fact it plays great! It's just a different type of playability that I didn't grow up with. If I had started playing with a stiffer cue my style of play would have developed around that.
Jason
 
Chopdoc said:
There is an interesting aspect!


Has he registered the phrase with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO)?

If not...maybe he should get on that!

And...if he has not, I think that steals some thunder from your position...but it does not steal all of it. :smile:


Great point! :thumbup:





.
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I've got no thunder. Since "high end cue" is a subjective term, I'm only suggesting to ask the guy that uses "High End Cue" as his business name what he considers high end cues.
 
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I'm willing to bet that if just a handful of guys on this site wanted to, they could take nearly any relatively unknown or unheralded maker and spin him into a "Top 5" guy in two years or less.
 
Bigb'scues said:
Lol. It's Kerner.......but then again who am I to correct .... you seem to know everything
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Let me very clear. I only know what I know. I don't know what I don't know.

If I want to find out something, I actually do some research. I think a lot of people try that route.


Freddie <~~~ or we could perpetuate rumors
 
skins said:
$20 huh... Ask any wine maker to make only 15 bottles of wine a year and see how much each cost.....Even at your analogy, don't forget about the time, materials, labor, equipment, etc..needed to make that "$20" bottle of wine... The ONLY way it gets 'there' is BECAUSE of volume...In "normal" custom cue construction lets say there's $250 to $600 in materials. After that take into consideration, the makers time, technique, knowledge, and desirability (consisting of many factors), AND THEN yearly output and that $250 can easily turn into $6000 and deservedly so as the "market" will bare IF that maker has passed the scrutiny of those who KNOW what their looking at.

"High End" determination is for the "Cognoscenti"... If you don't know what the word means go look it up....
Click to expand...

I think I probably agree with everything in your post. I don't see any disagreement between us.

Of course custom cue makers who produce small quantities of cues need to charge a reasonable figure for their time and expertise, otherwise there'd be no expert cue makers. And so I'm certainly not saying that a $5000 price tag for such a cue is unwarranted from the cue maker's point of view. It's the only way he (or she) can make a living, and really is a reflection of their time and effort. I'm also not saying that this wouldn't be a high end cue. I agree with you 100%.

As previously mentioned, the error IMO is in ignoring playability, and suggesting that because these cues are particularly expensive, that other cues CANNOT be considered "high end", either because there are too many of them, or because they are not expensive enough, regardless of how they play.

As per my golf analogy, a Callaway or Taylor Made is still a "high end" club, despite being a production club, and costing "only" $700.
 
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