Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
Wimpy would get heisted by Alex, c'mon now.
Mud Balls on a 5x10
No Simonis, no bouncey aramath balls
No 14 piece modular shafts with moori tips
No chance...heist is right, just the other way :thumbup:
So would 80's Efren beat Mosconi...
- Thread starter inside_english
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Wimpy would get heisted by Alex, c'mon now.
Mud Balls on a 5x10
No Simonis, no bouncey aramath balls
No 14 piece modular shafts with moori tips
No chance...heist is right, just the other way :thumbup:
I respect your opinion. I just think from what i've seen they couldn't kick, play safe, or play position as well as guys today on tables where all that stuff shows up. I think anybody can adjust to push out rules pretty easily.
I think people over rate people from the past in pool and tons of other things. For instance the pool room I grew up playing in which is family billiards in clearwater. Everybody always talked about this guy named randy brown as if he was one of the best ever, and all these amazing shots he would shoot.
I finally saw him play 3 years later. At that time he didn't play his best but I still thought he was a good smooth player, but now when I look back I am positive if I went back in time I could give him the last 4 for sure.
This will always be debated, but you can never compare the old school players with the new players. You have to separate them in their own era's.
What I see on here is a lot of mention of Reyes, Alex, and Buddy. But what I don't see is much mention of Strickland. Love him or hate him, he IS the best 9-ball player of all time. Efren Reyes and Mike Sigel would be the best all around players of all time, with the edge maybe going to Mike Sigel. (just my opinion!!).
Before all the demons got into Earl's head, he was like a machine. It was awesome to watch him play. There were no difficult shots to him, and he moved that cue ball around like a master. If he could fight off these demons, I believe that his game would still be pretty much at the same level today. It is very unfortunate to see what has become of the great Earl, because in his prime, he was beautiful to watch!!
Let's face it, the old school guys like Mosconi and Lassiter didn't have a lot of equipment changes. There just wasn't that much research going into changing the equipment. With the competitiveness of the sport now, and the technology available, equipment is changing more frequently. So you have to continuously re-adapt and roll with the changes.
I don't want to seem like I'm putting down the old schooler's. I love watching them play. I could never relate simply because I didn't play in that era, and my opinions may be a bit bias. I do believe that if today's top pro's switched places with the pro's from the past, they would still be at the top. That's just what the greats do, they adapt.
Remember these are just my opinions, so try not to crucify me too bad!! I'm fragile!!
What I see on here is a lot of mention of Reyes, Alex, and Buddy. But what I don't see is much mention of Strickland. Love him or hate him, he IS the best 9-ball player of all time. Efren Reyes and Mike Sigel would be the best all around players of all time, with the edge maybe going to Mike Sigel. (just my opinion!!).
Before all the demons got into Earl's head, he was like a machine. It was awesome to watch him play. There were no difficult shots to him, and he moved that cue ball around like a master. If he could fight off these demons, I believe that his game would still be pretty much at the same level today. It is very unfortunate to see what has become of the great Earl, because in his prime, he was beautiful to watch!!
Let's face it, the old school guys like Mosconi and Lassiter didn't have a lot of equipment changes. There just wasn't that much research going into changing the equipment. With the competitiveness of the sport now, and the technology available, equipment is changing more frequently. So you have to continuously re-adapt and roll with the changes.
I don't want to seem like I'm putting down the old schooler's. I love watching them play. I could never relate simply because I didn't play in that era, and my opinions may be a bit bias. I do believe that if today's top pro's switched places with the pro's from the past, they would still be at the top. That's just what the greats do, they adapt.
Remember these are just my opinions, so try not to crucify me too bad!! I'm fragile!!
I disagree about earl being the best 9ball player. I've got alot of videos of him of when he was in his prime and I think he kicks and plays safe better now then he did then. I think he won alot of matches with a big break on soft equipment. I think on a tough table back then he couldnt beat alot of players from today. Matter of fact I'm positive!
Yes, good points. But Earl wasn't the only one playing on that equipment back in the day. A few other players like Sigel, Rempe, Varner, Hall, Hopkins, and many others that I just don't have time to mention. Plus correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Earl win the world championship in 9-ball beating Bustamante in 2000? Then there is the fact that he's won the toughest tournament on the pro circuit 5 times...the US Open!! The next closest is Sigel with 3.
Everyone has their case for who they think is the best 9-ball player ever, and that is where the beauty lies. We are entitled to our opinions, and it's fun to hear everyone's argument on why they think their person is best.
Everyone has their case for who they think is the best 9-ball player ever, and that is where the beauty lies. We are entitled to our opinions, and it's fun to hear everyone's argument on why they think their person is best.
Donnie, I've seen you play and you're an excellent player. I also knew Randy quite well and he was a very good money player, a tad better than you might think. You probably could beat him even, but I don't think you were the last four over him, especially on a tough table where it isn't a run out every rack. On the old slow cloth, you may not have liked the game that much. Randy played his best when he was very young (in his teens and early 20's). Maybe before you ever saw him play.
I feel like I'm a pretty good judge of pool and ability. I made a little money over the years handicapping pool games. My opinion (like those of many on here) is that the best players of yesteryear were just as good as the best players of today. I'll use Eddie Kelly as an example. He could run 100 balls in 14.1 day after day. And the old Anniversaries and Sport Kings and early Gold Crowns were not such soft tables as you might think. We frequently played on double shimmed pockets (about 4.5"), with straight cut pockets.
We also played on slow cloth so a big stroke was required. The balls are not that big a factor. We had modern balls by the 60's. Back to Ed Kelly. He could make any bank or combination and understood the pack very well. He could run eight and out in One Pocket with a tough lay out. So could Jersey Red and Boston Shorty and a few others. I don't even want to tell you what Ronnie could do. You wouldn't believe me anyway. There is no one today (and I include Scott Frost, Cliff, and all the others except Efren) who play close to his speed of One Pocket. Gabe is coming the closest today but still not Ronnie's speed. Ask Grady next time you see him how good Ronnie played. See what he tells you.
If you ever saw Buddy play at his peak, that is how Kelly played 9-Ball every day. Perfect position with pin point cue ball control. He had that ball on a string. How many players today can play that way all day. I see good players miss balls just as often today as back then. And like someone else said earlier, Lassiter might not miss a ball all day. If he missed once in a Race To Eleven he considered it only a fair performance. One thing I'm emphatic about is that with a few rare exceptions (Larry Nevil being one), the players of the 60's had a bigger stroke than today's players. You had to develop your stroke back then to move the cue ball around. The difference between a good player and a great one was often how powerful his stroke was.
All in all, top flight pool is not so different today as it was 40 years ago. The best players (the top money players) could run out all day and night. On any equipment. Too bad you never saw Kelly, Jersey Red, Shorty, Ronnie or Cornbread at their peak. They would have opened your eyes wide since you love pool. These guys KNEW the game and how to play it, as good as anyone alive today. And some of them (Ronnie and Cornbread especially) could come with it for all the cash too. I've seen these guys make shots that would leave your knees weak.
I never even mentioned Keith here. He was an absolute destroyer of top money players. There is no better 9-ball player today than Keith in his prime. And no one can come with the shots he made routinely. I'd rate him a notch above today's pack of 9-Ball money players. Only a handful of guys play his speed or close. And for big money they might not get there with him. Like I said, it was a different game with the slow cloth. The run outs required work, not a bunch of soft shots.
Yes, today's champions are great players and excellent shot makers, but pool is about a little more than just shooting balls in the hole. When all your cheese is on the line, how many players can let out their stroke and make the tough shot that they need. This is why I respect the filipinos so much. They have the gambler's heart. And that's what makes them among the best players world wide year after year.
Just like the 7/11 in years gone by, there is no player who can go over to the Philippines and play a steady diet of top players there, and come home with the money. Not Shane, not anyone you can name. They will wear you out over there. One day when you have some vacation time, I would suggest you make a trip to the Philippines. If you want top flight competition (and bet what you want), you will get your fill. And if you come home with any money, I will be first to congratulate you. So far, only Johnny has been able to say he did that, about fifteen years ago. To this day, they respect his game.
By the way, you're absolute correct about kicking ability. They didn't have to kick at balls back then. They just rolled out for a shot. But they banked and cut balls unbelievably good. They had to! That's enough (maybe too much) for now.
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Agreed! The best 9-Ball tournament player I ever saw was Earl. He had a higher speed than the rest of the world. The best 9-ball money player was Buddy. When it came to all around ability to play all games, Sigel and Mizerak led the pack. I don't think Efren could fade these two at Straight Pool. And he may not have been the favorite at 9-ball either. Only in One Pocket do I give him a small edge.
We are only talking about the last 30 years here, not going back 40 years or more. Many people may not like to hear this, but when it comes to top speed players in the USA, we may have had more 25-30 years ago than today. We could easily put 30-40 players on a tournament chart who could really play. Today, if I see 30-40 top speed players on a board, they come from all over the world. JMHO of course. :wink:
Sorry Donnie, I disagree with you here. Earl was running six and seven racks in every match he played. Who does that today? And the equipment was not that soft either. Al Conte knew how to make those old Gold Crowns play tough. Double shimmed with straight pockets was no bargain. You had to hit the pocket cleanly to make the ball. Earl was a monster! On a tough table, he would have tortured many of today's champions. He hit every ball in the center of the pocket.
Thanks for sticking up for Earl, but I don't think you know who you're talking to.....Have you seen Donny Mills play?
Maybe do a little more research before belittling the pros who are kind enough to frequent this forum?
FWIW, I think Earl might beat Donny on the table you mentioned, playing even. BUT, Earl's not going to like it if he gives up ANYTHING.
JMO
Earl does have a lot of hardware but it is harder to win pro events with the caliber and quantity of the pro's that are out there now.
There are a lot of guys who don't have the tournament record that Earl has, but could still beat him TODAY. If Donny Mills played the Earl from 1988-2002, he would probably lose. (And so would everybody else)
I'm going to politely disagree. I think that in any era, you have the top tier pro's, that are always going to be a favorite to win. Then you have other's that if they play their absolute best, and get a favorable draw, they may win!!
Darryl Peach comes to mind. Good player, but did anyone really expect him to win the WC with players like Archer, SVB, Deuel, Schmidt, Strickland, Bustamante, Alcano, Immonen, Hohmman, Souquet, and many other's that I would make favorite over him? No.
I would imagine that in today's tournaments, there may be about 20 players that could be a favorite to win, but it was no different in Earl's prime. There were players like Sigel, Rempe, Varner, Hopkins, Hall, Archer( A young gun back then), Mataya, Incardona, Matthews, Davenport, and many others!!
Each era has their big names, but Earl's name has demanded respect from day one!! He's still feared, because any of these young guns today know, that if they get Earl on a good day, it's over for them. It's just too bad that those days are becoming fewer and fewer, but trust me, he's still feared!! I'm not too sure that he won't win another big tournament before it's all over.
Again just my opinion so don't hang me for it!!
Thanks for this post. Earl won so many tournaments, more than anyone else in his prime. He did have to beat guys like Sigel, Mizerak, Efren, Parica, Varner, Hopkins, Davenport, Keith, Louie, David Howard, Medina, Rempe and a guy named Hall every time out. If anyone thinks these fields were soft, they're sorely mistaken. I dare say there were as many good players back then as now.
You won't hear any of this old guard demeaning Earl's accomplishments. He was the real deal! Anyone who thinks this guy wasn't a stone cold champion is delusional. He may be the best tournament 9-Ball player of all time, better than Lassiter or Hall or anyone else. His record speaks for itself.
When it comes to gambling Buddy and Parica were the kings. Parica in his prime would be giving the 8,9 and 10 to a player Donnie's speed. Buddy would only have to give the 7 in 9-Ball. Sorry to have to say this, but since it came up that's my opinion. And I like Donnie's game too. To get weight from guys like Parica and Hall is nothing to be ashamed of. Parica was spotting everybody at Ten Ball, except Sigel and he beat him too.
When Earl was young and still gambling, he played just under Buddy and Parica for the cash. So he could play a little too, with money on the line.
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Champions are Champions...
After reading all the many posts and Thanks so much Jay for your actual and accurate memories...Perhaps all of these Champions whether they played on Diamonds of today or Gold Crowns of yesterday, they were champions because they did not miss very much and did most things right.
Also, after reading the many posts, something really stands out.
When a player is recalled to possibly never have missed a ball all day and things alike, this fact is hard to dispute and definately needs to be respected...also, the fact of the putting together 6,7,8 packs as well, during tournaments and gambling sessions..
Yes there were and are so many great champions of now and time past, but when you can honestly say that so and so had moments where he just never missed for a great length of time is very strong. Maybe it was just a tournament match or many matches or gambling or over a period of days...
This player surely was one whos pocketed balls most always hit the center of the hole for sure....
Something to surely consider when comparing all of our past and present champs...
Thanks again,
Mr. J.
After reading all the many posts and Thanks so much Jay for your actual and accurate memories...Perhaps all of these Champions whether they played on Diamonds of today or Gold Crowns of yesterday, they were champions because they did not miss very much and did most things right.
Also, after reading the many posts, something really stands out.
When a player is recalled to possibly never have missed a ball all day and things alike, this fact is hard to dispute and definately needs to be respected...also, the fact of the putting together 6,7,8 packs as well, during tournaments and gambling sessions..
Yes there were and are so many great champions of now and time past, but when you can honestly say that so and so had moments where he just never missed for a great length of time is very strong. Maybe it was just a tournament match or many matches or gambling or over a period of days...
This player surely was one whos pocketed balls most always hit the center of the hole for sure....
Something to surely consider when comparing all of our past and present champs...
Thanks again,
Mr. J.
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How do ya...
How do you argue pool facts with a guy whos head looks like a cue ball....
Sorry to point out the obvious Mr. H but I think as far as pool facts go you got to be considered a senior member.. I like what SJD has to say also, I know hes got you buy a year or two, but (most) of what you say scemes to come from a vast pool of knowledge, or knowledge of pool. I dont really know, you might not be able too screw in a light bulb, but you sure can tell sombody how to screw their stick together.
How do you argue pool facts with a guy whos head looks like a cue ball....
Sorry to point out the obvious Mr. H but I think as far as pool facts go you got to be considered a senior member.. I like what SJD has to say also, I know hes got you buy a year or two, but (most) of what you say scemes to come from a vast pool of knowledge, or knowledge of pool. I dont really know, you might not be able too screw in a light bulb, but you sure can tell sombody how to screw their stick together.Earl Strickland in his prime would have been a champion in any era. I saw him gamble in the mid 80's on tight equipment and he played as if the pockets were buckets...6 packs followed by 4 packs, he was an offensive machine. I can't think of anyone today that I'd bet on over him in his prime.
I saw Mosconi play well after his retirement and to this day I haven't seen anyone play staright pool like him. To think the players of the past couldn't measure up to todays players is absurd. In the 70's and 80's you had Varner, Sigel, rempe, Louie Roberts who could pocket some crazy shots, Mizerak, Danny Medina (I don't think a lot of people realize how good Medina was), McCready, Buddy Hall, Allen Hopkins. It was very hard to win a major back then.
I saw Mosconi play well after his retirement and to this day I haven't seen anyone play staright pool like him. To think the players of the past couldn't measure up to todays players is absurd. In the 70's and 80's you had Varner, Sigel, rempe, Louie Roberts who could pocket some crazy shots, Mizerak, Danny Medina (I don't think a lot of people realize how good Medina was), McCready, Buddy Hall, Allen Hopkins. It was very hard to win a major back then.
im not sure how many times i have to tell you i know i could not beat him when he was at his best.
ill back donny.
Hey Donny I saw you play at last year's US Open...VERY impressive. Too bad about the loss to Raj at CueMasters though...but man you have a helluva game!