Solution for racking issues!!!

[av84fun]

Why must we change all the rules to the games because some people have a weak break..Seems ridiculous..Corey Deuel was a genius and found out a way to hit the balls weaker than any human and beat the best breakers in the world then they changed the rules..Why do people complain about the break when they can do the same exact thing..its all a mystery to me..break them anyway u want and lets see who wins...They don't tell tiger woods you can't hit this stinger 2 iron anymore just isn't fair to other guys u hitting a 2 iron as far as they hit their driver...

If not just play rotation if you want to see tough outs and the best shooter win...The best player has to win playing rotation I think.. Brings every aspect into the game..Safes, banks, billiards,Great Position and long tough outs...Lets just use all the balls and get it on...

Because Gomez broke softer and beat Feijen 10-0 (or something like that) in a winner breaks format where Feijen got out of his chair like twice during what was supposed to be a competition but which turned out to be a boring farce.

9 Ball is a highly OFFENSIVE game by its very nature with defense, kicking, banks etc. being important and often separating the men from the boys but still secondary to the NATURE of the game...and trying to make it anything else is what is ridiculous.

I AGREE with you that if what people want to watch and play are slow, laborious, "chess match" types of games, then there is one hole and rotation.

But there is not a mass audience for those games in America anyway and none for curling or cricket either. And without a mass audience, there is no pro tour because there is no (little) TV, ticket sales, sponsorships which RELY on a mass audience.

I'm not saying that I LIKE the reality necessarily...just that it IS the reality and trying to turn 9 Ball into something other than 9 Ball isn't going to work.

What SHOULD happen is putting an end to AUTOMATIC balls on the break was was the case in the Gomez/feijen match and most matches where soft breaks on tapped racks are allowed...the spotting of the 9 on the break and "no slop" rules which, combined with moving the 9 to the spot and/or breaking from the head spot and ending the unprecedented winner breaks format, would SUBSTANTIALLY reduce the luck factor in the game.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

uhhh....ok. what the hee haw are you talking about? do pro's not miss? every pro match i've seen, there have been at least one missed shot, whether it be easy or hard.

playing pool is about controlling the cue ball so that you dont have tough shots. if you want to see more tough shots, go watch a beginners tournament.

True, you do see more tough shots attempted by beginners. It's just that the execution is not so good.

You can also see a lot of tough shots, made by pros in 3-Cushion. In fact, there are not too many easy shots in that game.

English Billiards died because the game styles were so boringly repetitive with players going hours sometimes repeating almost identical shots without missing.

Snooker took over because the players were playing more difficult shots more often. Making 20 shots in a row got a roar of applause from the gallery.

Colin

 

[av84fun]

Jay,
10 ball pretty much turns into 9-ball after a ball or two is potted. I don't know the exact stats, but I'd estimate that the guy who pots the 3-ball (or equivalent after the break) is a very high probability of winning the game. Close to 90%. These guys shoot 80-90% against the 9-ball ghost so I'd imagine it is a similar figure.

When I organized the Ralf Souquet v Pan Xiao Ting exhibition match in Shanghai, a lot of people commented that the game wasn't as exciting as they imagined because whoever made the first ball of each game almost assuredly ran out with few tense moments or big shots along the way. They all thought, heck, I can make all those shots.

These are the people the game needs to attract as new fans and the current format, the way it is played by the pros doesn't excite them. They get more excited watching a couple of bangers trading misses on the 9-ball with the accompanying oohs aahs and groans and the excited roar of victory when one of the players finally flukes the 9 off 3 rails. Silly I know, but that is what entertains the average occasional player.

I'm not sure where you are watching pool. It seems to me most these outs don't require great shots too often. Often great / perfect position that we can appreciate, but not too many big pots or big cue ball action shots that might get the masses salivating.

As another poster said, if you want to see a lot of big shots, watch the beginners play. When big shots are required for 9-ball pros, they most often play a safety or a conservative shot to nothing.

Colin

And rotation is 10 ball after the first 5 are potted! (-:

I was going to chime in after your first post when you suggested that the player potting the 2nd ball is a 90% favorite to win. Now you are up to the 3rd ball which is more realistic but even then, I would doubt your 90% statistic.

I have a ton of match videos so when I get time, I'll take a look but having seen two champion players dog the 8 ball in the SAME RACK...and I mean DOG it...I would doubt that the 3rd ball maker wins more than 75% tops!

Quite a few players seem bored with 9 Ball these days so they resort to saying that it is too easy but, of course, if that were true then the same couple of dozen players...the same dozen mostly, wouldn't win such a large percentage of the major tournaments.

And Alli wouldn't have won more tournaments than all other WPBA pros COMBINED! That 9 Ball is easy is statistically incorrect and therefore, not subject to debate in polite society.

PLUS, as I've noted elsewhere, just a few rule changes...some of which would change the game BACK to the way it used to be played would reduce the ease and luck factor significantly.

Finally, the win percentage against the GHOST is an entirely misleading statistic (and one that is likely over-rated anyway) since players generally DON'T get BIH after the break.

Using such a rule to prove a point is like trying to prove that hitting home runs is easy...so long as the pitcher throws perfect strikes at 3/4 speed with no curve balls allowed! (-:

Regards,
Jim

 

[jay helfert]

Jay,
10 ball pretty much turns into 9-ball after a ball or two is potted. I don't know the exact stats, but I'd estimate that the guy who pots the 3-ball (or equivalent after the break) is a very high probability of winning the game. Close to 90%. These guys shoot 80-90% against the 9-ball ghost so I'd imagine it is a similar figure.

When I organized the Ralf Souquet v Pan Xiao Ting exhibition match in Shanghai, a lot of people commented that the game wasn't as exciting as they imagined because whoever made the first ball of each game almost assuredly ran out with few tense moments or big shots along the way. They all thought, heck, I can make all those shots.

These are the people the game needs to attract as new fans and the current format, the way it is played by the pros doesn't excite them. They get more excited watching a couple of bangers trading misses on the 9-ball with the accompanying oohs aahs and groans and the excited roar of victory when one of the players finally flukes the 9 off 3 rails. Silly I know, but that is what entertains the average occasional player.

I'm not sure where you are watching pool. It seems to me most these outs don't require great shots too often. Often great / perfect position that we can appreciate, but not too many big pots or big cue ball action shots that might get the masses salivating.

As another poster said, if you want to see a lot of big shots, watch the beginners play. When big shots are required for 9-ball pros, they most often play a safety or a conservative shot to nothing.

Colin

Ten Ball is easily a 20% more difficult game than 9-Ball with just one ball added. Strange huh? It's also strange that no matter how we manipulate the rules and make changes to the game, the same players seem to keep winning. I wonder why.

I've been watching 9-Ball tourneys for longer than I care to remember, and I've seen everything happen during the course of a game. I've seen crowded arenas where it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was riveted to the match and sitting on the edge of their seats, right up to the conclusion.

There's nothing wrong with pool just because 10,000 people don't want to come and watch a tournament. Pool by it's very nature is more suited to smaller intimate arenas. There are millions of other people who appreciate the skill it takes to play the game well. For your information television audiences for the WPC the last two years have been estimated at ten to twenty million people. Are these the "new" fans you are referring to. I guess they are so bored they have nothing better to do than watch pool on TV for six or seven hours a day.

Pool is alive and well, just not as much in the USA as the rest of the world.

 

[macneilb]

i agree w/ jamie on this one. why blame a guy like corey who takes the time to figure out how to take the luck factor out of the break? IMO he should be applauded on that. what i don't get is how people attribute all of his wins to his break...ever consider his hot streak wasn't just due to his breaking soft, its also b/c he just played really well? now, first we change the rules to break in 9 ball...and now we change the game itself to 10 ball? first, how long do you think it'll take before someone else out there figures out how to make the same ball consistently on the snap in 10 ball. i'd bet not very long since its the new "in game." second, alot of you keep saying how the general public finds pool boring, well...if they find it boring now w/ the players having a variety of breaks to choose from, how boring do you think they'll find it when they see every player breaking the exact same way from the exact same spot? and third, pool IMO is a game of creativity, forcing every player to break the same way eliminates that, which i think is a shame.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Ten Ball is easily a 20% more difficult game than 9-Ball with just one ball added. Strange huh? It's also strange that no matter how we manipulate the rules and make changes to the game, the same players seem to keep winning. I wonder why.

That's probably just because those players are luckier than the others

And I agree with you re 10 ball being considerably harder. At least the break and early stages. We'll get some more aggressive shots, we'll also get more safety play and kicking.

I've been watching 9-Ball tourneys for longer than I care to remember, and I've seen everything happen during the course of a game. I've seen crowded arenas where it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was riveted to the match and sitting on the edge of their seats, right up to the conclusion.

There's nothing wrong with pool just because 10,000 people don't want to come and watch a tournament. Pool by it's very nature is more suited to smaller intimate arenas. There are millions of other people who appreciate the skill it takes to play the game well. For your information television audiences for the WPC the last two years have been estimated at ten to twenty million people. Are these the "new" fans you are referring to. I guess they are so bored they have nothing better to do than watch pool on TV for six or seven hours a day.

Pool is alive and well, just not as much in the USA as the rest of the world.

I don't argue that pool has a market the way it stands, it just isn't a very big market compared to major sports.

Personally I'd like to see formats where players play bigger shots more often and I think we'd find a much larger market if this was done and produced well. We've talked endlessly about what happened to the sport of poker. Yes there are differences, but what sparked that revolution was the way the sport was presented to audiences. How to achieve similar success for pool is not exactly clear. What I suggested above is one alternative. Methods of production are, I think, crucial too.

But for now I'll still enjoy the 9-ball or 10-ball or just about any billiard sport where i can see the elite play, and Ill continue to hope that something more exciting appears on the horizon.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

And rotation is 10 ball after the first 5 are potted! (-:

I was going to chime in after your first post when you suggested that the player potting the 2nd ball is a 90% favorite to win. Now you are up to the 3rd ball which is more realistic but even then, I would doubt your 90% statistic.

I have a ton of match videos so when I get time, I'll take a look but having seen two champion players dog the 8 ball in the SAME RACK...and I mean DOG it...I would doubt that the 3rd ball maker wins more than 75% tops!

Quite a few players seem bored with 9 Ball these days so they resort to saying that it is too easy but, of course, if that were true then the same couple of dozen players...the same dozen mostly, wouldn't win such a large percentage of the major tournaments.

And Alli wouldn't have won more tournaments than all other WPBA pros COMBINED! That 9 Ball is easy is statistically incorrect and therefore, not subject to debate in polite society.

PLUS, as I've noted elsewhere, just a few rule changes...some of which would change the game BACK to the way it used to be played would reduce the ease and luck factor significantly.

Finally, the win percentage against the GHOST is an entirely misleading statistic (and one that is likely over-rated anyway) since players generally DON'T get BIH after the break.

Using such a rule to prove a point is like trying to prove that hitting home runs is easy...so long as the pitcher throws perfect strikes at 3/4 speed with no curve balls allowed! (-:

Regards,
Jim

Jim,

Good point and I won't argue the stats or the ghost ball BIH comparison. Just making some estimates, but it doesn't change the fact that many newbie viewers at many matches get the impression that the game is pretty much over and done with early into the rack.

They're occasionally blessed with a tight game at the end of a rack. Hopefully they're still paying attention by then.

When I said the game is easy, I didn't mean that anyone can win. The best will still win. What I mean is that most pots played are relatively easy. The position is not so easy, but it is usually one rail, hence appearing easy too.

This is almost never the case in a game of 3 cushion.

Say for example the player had to hit 2 rails after every pot. Then we'd see some inventive positional shots and many more pots from more difficult positions with more power. That is the kind of game where nearly any shot could go wrong. A game to keep audiences on the edge of their seats. A game which would produce many worthy shots for the highlight package, rather than a few jump shots, a long table bank and a fluke shot.

Colin

 

[JoeW]

I haven't looked up the stats but I would guess that football (european and american) and basketball are two of the most widely watched sports. One of the things that these sports have in common is rapid exchanges of who has the ball. In this sense sports with many turnovers are appealing to the masses.

I wonder what would happen if 9-Ball were played with alternating shots. Every shot is offense and defense. We sure would see some action and a display of pool skills if the players received one point for each pocketed ball.

A second wrinkle might be that the opponent could decline to shoot if the resulting position were "impossible." The player would have to shoot again and if he fouled the opponent gets ball in hand on the head spot. The game becomes make a ball and leave difficult but not impossible position.

Will he go for it? What would you do? etc, etc, etc.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I haven't looked up the stats but I would guess that football (european and american) and basketball are two of the most widely watched sports. One of the things that these sports have in common is rapid exchanges of who has the ball. In this sense sports with many turnovers are appealing to the masses.

I wonder what would happen if 9-Ball were played with alternating shots. Every shot is offense and defense. We sure would see some action and a display of pool skills if the players received one point for each pocketed ball.

A second wrinkle might be that the opponent could decline to shoot if the resulting position were "impossible." The player would have to shoot again and if he fouled the opponent gets ball in hand on the head spot. The game becomes make a ball and leave difficult but not impossible position.

Will he go for it? What would you do? etc, etc, etc.

Good observation re football.

I have trialled a version of rotation pool that I call 2-cushion 6-ball. Just 6 balls on the table. Point score is the value of the ball number. Whenever a shot is missed, or 2 cushions are not hit, the other player receives ball in hand. Hence almost no safety play. Purely a very tough potting and positional challenge and all balls count, but the climax of each rack has higher risk/rewards. For this reason, and that it is very hard to run 6 in rotation hitting 2 rails on every shot, the break is far less important.

Colin

 

[av84fun]

Ten Ball is easily a 20% more difficult game than 9-Ball with just one ball added. Strange huh? It's also strange that no matter how we manipulate the rules and make changes to the game, the same players seem to keep winning. I wonder why.

I've been watching 9-Ball tourneys for longer than I care to remember, and I've seen everything happen during the course of a game. I've seen crowded arenas where it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was riveted to the match and sitting on the edge of their seats, right up to the conclusion.

There's nothing wrong with pool just because 10,000 people don't want to come and watch a tournament. Pool by it's very nature is more suited to smaller intimate arenas. There are millions of other people who appreciate the skill it takes to play the game well. For your information television audiences for the WPC the last two years have been estimated at ten to twenty million people. Are these the "new" fans you are referring to. I guess they are so bored they have nothing better to do than watch pool on TV for six or seven hours a day.

Pool is alive and well, just not as much in the USA as the rest of the world.

Jay, I am SURE that you are quoting some known authority on that because you certainly never make stuff up...but...an estimate that has a 100% error range totaling 10 million people isn't much of an estimate.

And certainly, only a very small portion of whatever the audience was were Americans. The highest numbers I've seen for U.S. TV audiences are 600,000-700,000 viewers.

Best,
Jim

 

[enzo]

This below is a golden post. The discussion should just be stopped here as far as im concerned.

I don't really understand all the break issues with this game.

Truth be known, I'd rather have bamboo shoots stuck under my fingernails than have to play this game so I'll admit I'm really not up with this, but I don't understand how there could be any legitimate concern about 9 ball breaks.

I'm one of those straight pool lovers, and I can't help but think if folks were getting the 14.1 break down perfectly, should they change the rules on how to break? Geez, some guys could run 400 balls, so why not limit a players inning to 100 then they have to sit down, I mean after all, we don't want them to make too many balls in their inning.

Regardless of the idiosyncrasies of any game, both people are playing on the same table with the same balls. Because somebody invents a term like cut break, and is having success with breaking softly, why should any of that make a difference.

You wanna break hard, break hard, you wanna break soft, break soft. So long as the cue ball is on the table behind the headstring, play the game. Geez, I just don't get it. :scratchhead: