some people claim you get better by playing better players

[Colonel]

You will not really see any difference with just one tournament, or taking notes on what other better players are doing. It is a long term experience that take's place regardless if you are even aware it is happening to you.

The story is always the same and I have heard it dozens of times. For me it was I played in a bowling alley. From the time I was like 15 I was the best player there as well in a short time about the best in my town.

There were some very good players I may struggle with but pretty much I had gone way beyond everybody else, no one around there could beat me.

Then I started going to a 24 hour room in Miami where DiLiberto and Mike Caralla hung. Marcel Camp was the houseman along with a host of road players coming and going and I never really went back to my old room much anymore.

It was "Total emmersion education" in pool. You learn through osmosis and don't even know it is happening. A year later and you go back to where you used to play and it is a joke. All the players you thought were so good actually stink, you can give them the 5 ball.

I do not think this kind of improvement can take place in a vacuum, no matter how much you practice or how many videos you watch. You have to get out and be exposed to it on a day to day basis.

One of the things you notice is that when you see and play top players it just rubs off. They make it look easy and your brain I guess says, "Hell I can do that" and you do. It is for the most part an unconscious occurrence, it just happens. In that room I am referring to in fact, even the suckers played good, the place was "Higher education" in pool for anyone that hung there even with no talent.

^^^ This is a very good post for a lot of reasons. I think it points out what I think is what's important which is what do you want from your pool experience. If you want a social experience then play in handicapped leagues & tournaments. If you really want to become great at this game you're really not going to find it in those places though. To really become great it requires immersion.

Find an action style hall and players and dive in. Instead of handicapped leagues or tournaments, get a spot and gamble cheap with action players. It's a different world and you will get better or you will go bust trying. It will teach you how to match up, not only from your experiences but also by being in an environment where you can watch these types of players match up and how these matches turn out.

This game requires immersion, thousands of hours of rote repetition, playing daily, not one night a week on league night and on weekends. Don't have that much time to dedicate to it? Then reside yourself to where you end up between your natural ability & the hours you are willing to dedicate to it because this game is one that truly exemplifies the old saying of you'll only get out of it what you put into it, there are no shortcuts. World beaters are forged in action halls, not in APA leagues, it's just the way it is. There's nothing wrong with that side of pool if that's what you enjoy & all you want out of it. If you want more then you have to put in the time and you'll become far better gambling cheap with great players for your education than you ever will in one of those leagues. Instead of spending your $ on $30 cubes of chalk and the latest layered tip or glove or the ZRX 14 super special turbo charged LD shaft for $200 put that money in action getting the 7 and the breaks from your local shortstop. It will test your mettle and you will learn. If you're honest with yourself, even when you lose you will learn what you really needed to match up to make a game even where you have an opportunity to win and if you don't then you just hate $. Eventually in this kind of competition you'll start to win if you match up properly. As time goes on the spot will need to adjust because you won't need as much weight, eventually to where you don't need any. This is merely my opinion, it was the way I got my education, I paid for it and paid my dues. I know there are those to don't subscribe to the gambling side of pool, but it's where 98% of pools champions started and honed their skills, not in a handicapped APA 8 ball league, just my .02 cents.

 

[naji]

i have heard both sides of the argument.

1. you get better by facing stronger players.

2. you cant learn much sitting in the chair watching them run out.

i decided to see for my self today if it is true or not so i played in the memphis open 9 ball tourny today.

1st thing i want to say is that i have played in a few non handicapped local tournys...... played in the napa nationals.... played in the apa nationals. none of them compare to the level of players that were in this tourny.

i am only an apa 5 and even though a friend said ...and i quote .." you aint got a snow balls chance in hell " of winning this thing. i decided to give it a try..

how did i do ? went 2 and out losing both matches 7-2.

did i learn anything in my 2 matches ? yea..... don't miss . :grin-square:

on a serious note i learned 2 things that stand out between me and my opponents.

1. take more time in lining up shots. it seems that i rush shots and rattle pockets where they are a little more deliberate and focused on the same type of shot .

2.cue ball control....too many times when i shot i got out of position by a few inches. they very seldom got out of position.

one thing they both complimented me on was my kicking ability. when they played safes i usually made a good hit.

at 60 years old i know my better days are over but if i focus on things i picked up today i think i can get a lil better.

i did talk to robb saez and i will be taking a few lessons from him.

i also got to meet johnny archer out side and we shook hands and exchanged hellos.

bottom line is i think you can get better playing stronger players if you pay attention to what they do and apply it to your practice. i know today pointed out my weaknesses and it gave me the desire to improve. there were several racks that i should have won if i had not made a mistake in cue ball control.

guys like i faced will run out in a heart beat after you run 6 balls and rattle the 7th.

Good question, i asked myself the same question this morning, went as far as 37 years back, and the only answer i came up with, is i learn the sad truth that i was not as good as him! and sucked at the game back then! (BB i am better now!), learned to watch out for hustlers, and to keep track of score,and learned that handicap in pool exists! learned that i needed a lot of work to get my game up to speed. I did learn some shots in one pocket & how to dock!!, but no one will make you see the shot in a game except long hard years of experience, especially at old age, i'd say after 45 our memory retention of new stuff acquired via eyes & ears tends to be forgotten quickly and refresh is required ! i did learn from watching Efren, Grady, and few others few one pocket shots, but i struggle with execution. Bottom line we only learn from our own mistakes much more in pool..

 

[trob]

playing better in a handy cap tournament or apa isn't going to make you better. You have to play them heads up to see where you stand. Who cares if you beat me in apa 9 ball if I got to make 75 balls before you make 45 or whatever it is lol you got to stop hiding behind a handy cap

 

[BobTfromIL]

To me it depends on how much better the "better" player is. The league I'm in now consists of some players who are slightly better than me and some players who I am better than. To be honest I don't think there's much knowledge being transferred.
I personally seem to pick up much more from watching great players, thanks to Accu-Stats there's plenty of great matches available.
I guess in a perfect world you could find someone who meets the "better" player teacher mode.

 

[Celophanewrap]

playing better in a handy cap tournament or apa isn't going to make you better. You have to play them heads up to see where you stand. Who cares if you beat me in apa 9 ball if I got to make 75 balls before you make 45 or whatever it is lol you got to stop hiding behind a handy cap

If we play heads up to see where I am and we start out with you consistantly beating me 9-1, or 9-2, or worse all I'm getting better at is racking. Playing with a handicap is more to my advantage, at least I'll probably get to shoot.

I think it depends on the player. You guys that are money players, ususlly in a money match or game maybe the heads up matches make more sense for you but I rarely ever see those matches or games being played without someone asking for a spot of some sort. I doubt that any of the money players will waste their time playing me head up for free and I be stupid to play you guys without a spot. When I want to pay for play I think it's probably better to take a lesson. In a lesson I'm at least assured of some feedback and the chance to shoot some. To most of the money players I think I'm mainly seen as a fish

 

[3andstop]

Nevermind.

 

[9andout]

Great read! Keep up the tournament play.
I took one shining moment from my first one. The guy thought he was going to 3 foul me.
I was on the 3rd foul and came up with a sweet curve / masse' shot! (for some reason I have a knack for them, like you with the kicks) I then ran out THAT game.
I lost the match of course but always remember that shot and situation.
Also saw where I needed to improve and had a great time! :grin:

 

[Jaden]

IT's not that you get better playing better players...

i have heard both sides of the argument.

1. you get better by facing stronger players.

2. you cant learn much sitting in the chair watching them run out.

i decided to see for my self today if it is true or not so i played in the memphis open 9 ball tourny today.

1st thing i want to say is that i have played in a few non handicapped local tournys...... played in the napa nationals.... played in the apa nationals. none of them compare to the level of players that were in this tourny.

i am only an apa 5 and even though a friend said ...and i quote .." you aint got a snow balls chance in hell " of winning this thing. i decided to give it a try..

how did i do ? went 2 and out losing both matches 7-2.

did i learn anything in my 2 matches ? yea..... don't miss . :grin-square:

on a serious note i learned 2 things that stand out between me and my opponents.

1. take more time in lining up shots. it seems that i rush shots and rattle pockets where they are a little more deliberate and focused on the same type of shot .

2.cue ball control....too many times when i shot i got out of position by a few inches. they very seldom got out of position.

one thing they both complimented me on was my kicking ability. when they played safes i usually made a good hit.

at 60 years old i know my better days are over but if i focus on things i picked up today i think i can get a lil better.

i did talk to robb saez and i will be taking a few lessons from him.

i also got to meet johnny archer out side and we shook hands and exchanged hellos.

bottom line is i think you can get better playing stronger players if you pay attention to what they do and apply it to your practice. i know today pointed out my weaknesses and it gave me the desire to improve. there were several racks that i should have won if i had not made a mistake in cue ball control.

guys like i faced will run out in a heart beat after you run 6 balls and rattle the 7th.

It's not so much that you get better playing better players, it's that you stagnate when you play lesser players or players at your skill level.

You shouldn't be playing players several levels above you, but you should always be challenging your skill level.

Jaden

 

[macguy]

It's not so much that you get better playing better players, it's that you stagnate when you play lesser players or players at your skill level.

You shouldn't be playing players several levels above you, but you should always be challenging your skill level.

Jaden

It is very very much environment. Imagine, (For some it may be happening right now) an office environment with a bunch of slackers and people who could care less about their job, the company, or anything else beyond their paycheck.

Now you come in there, a new employee full of enthusiasm for your new job, ready to work and learn. Now lets fast forward a year and that guy you were on day one is probably long gone. It is hard to be enthusiastic by yourself. Those people will beat you down to their level as long as you stay there.

As it relates to pool you may find in the room where you play if you are doing drills or working to improve some are probably laughing at you. You have to generate your own interest and that is hard. You may not even have anyone to talk pool with.

In my other post I mentioned a room in Miami, and of course I was talking about the Congress billiards. A room that in the 60's and 70's was just about as good an action room as there was in the country. In the winter everyone came south and for a young pool player wanting to learn it was the equivalent of a Harvard education.

We were all flies on the wall taking all this in. You would see something and later that night you and your pool fanatic buddies would be on a table working on what you had just seen.

Or you would be on a back table practicing and here comes Marcel Camp a former great player (See link below) who was the houseman may come by watch for a minute and make a priceless comment about what you are working on.

This was a place were pool was all there was. Anything that went on outside those doors didn't matter. (Except maybe the dog track) It was a world unto itself. Once you were in it and if it was what you wanted it enveloped you and you began to learn.
I am sure this same thing exists in other sports.

There are few places like what I described anymore but the principal is the same. You have to be in the right environment. Sadly many times the environment players are in is actually counter productive and it is all they can do to keep up their enthusiasm for the game or learn.

This forum I think is a very good thing for that. Hopefully you are talking to people like yourself that really want to learn and enjoy talking pool.

http://www.newdeco.com/160.gif

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...K5dQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tyEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2351,153138

 

[Old Nine Baller]

my post was long enough so i did not mention my other major weakness. starting off slow.

Don't let that get you down, many very good (top) players are/were slow-starters. It hurts when gambling, you lose the first 5 or 6 and then start playing better and the guy quits.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

It's not so much that you get better playing better players, it's that you stagnate when you play lesser players or players at your skill level.

You shouldn't be playing players several levels above you, but you should always be challenging your skill level.

Jaden

You should always be playing players several levels above you. That's the only way to get better. Make what you think is a close game and bet what you can afford. You may surprise yourself.

Anything less is uncivilized.

ONB