Some Rational, Reasonable, Truthfully Logical, Cognitive Thought Regarding CTE

[JB Cases]

So, there you are, deep at third. The guy at bat is a known pull hitter and you know he's coming at you. Numbnuts serves him a medium fastball right down the pipe and he cold crushes it, a freakin' bullet that hits the ground the first time right beside your bag. You backhand it, take a couple of crow hops and gun him down at first.

So you used known objective data to make a conscious choice to be ready for a likely ball coming towards you and you have already picked your target at first base before the pitch. You're ready with all of the practiced mechanics and best practices that are available to you. All you need is opportunity to put all of that training, physical and mental into play for the moments that count.

 

[straightline]

I fell asleep and took up pool.

 

[The_JV]

I think part of the problem is that we are not really on the same page with this discussion. I am making points about the general nature of these things and going on the pool table to try and see how it plays out. It does not feel like you see that and it does feel like perhaps you think I am attacking some sort of sacred cow that dare not be touched.

I'm ignoring the rest of your posts prior to this one that were directed at me. Consider that 'ducking the issue', 'cherry picking', 'consession of the argument', I don't care. I'm at my wits end with trying to have a focused discussion with you. Pulling reason out of these talks is like hunting for needle in a bag of pissed off cats.

...<epiphany> sacred cow = my sanity </epiphany>
...<snip> (another attempt to have a conversation) </snip>

 

[Boxcar]

So you used known objective data to make a conscious choice to be ready for a likely ball coming towards you and you have already picked your target at first base before the pitch. You're ready with all of the practiced mechanics and best practices that are available to you. All you need is opportunity to put all of that training, physical and mental into play for the moments that count.

That's an interesting assessment, John, and I'm glad you took it up. It is, however, a subjective assessment. The hitter had you way back, anticipating the hit. What if he bunts? The pitcher threw him the perfect pitch for a hard pull. What if Numbnuts takes him low and away? Or worse, comes inside at his letters?

In the milliseconds in which my scenario plays out, my third baseman doesn't think...because he doesn't have to think, all he does is react. As human, beings, we have been hard wired for eons to react instinctively.

There is a difference between assumptions and objective data.

 

[chefjeff]

I think part of the problem is that we are not really on the same page with this discussion. I am making points about the general nature of these things and going on the pool table to try and see how it plays out. It does not feel like you see that and it does feel like perhaps you think I am attacking some sort of sacred cow that dare not be touched. and if so then it becomes easier to go after my "form" and tell me that I don't use GB "correctly" when there are many ways taught to use GB. So which of them is correct?

I posted a sentence in one short post to him three times, as he wouldn't respond in my other posts....and he missed all three again and kept on with another subject. I got some likes for it, but no response to the subject at hand.

I quit him right there. He's a long-winded time waster as opposed to most time wasters here who give short quips mostly.


Jeff Livingston

 

[The_JV]

I posted a sentence in one short post to him three times, as he wouldn't respond in my other posts....and he missed all three again and kept on with another subject. I got some likes for it, but no response to the subject at hand.

I quit him right there. He's a long-winded time waster as opposed to most time wasters here who give short quips mostly.


Jeff Livingston

apologies... link?

 

[BC21]

So, there you are, deep at third. The guy at bat is a known pull hitter and you know he's coming at you. Numbnuts serves him a medium fastball right down the pipe and he cold crushes it, a freakin' bullet that hits the ground the first time right beside your bag. You backhand it, take a couple of crow hops and gun him down at first.

The conscious mind gathered visual and auditory data of the hit in lightning-fast speed and triggered the subconscious network required to snag that ball up. Then, again with lightning-fast speed, the conscious mind gathered visual data and body orientation relative to first base, and this triggered the subconscious network required for whizzing the ball to 1st.

 

[Boxcar]

The conscious mind gathered visual and auditory data of the hit in lightning-fast speed and triggered the subconscious network required to snag that ball up. Then, again with lightning-fast speed, the conscious mind gathered visual data and body orientation relative to first base, and this triggered the subconscious network required for whizzing the ball to 1st.

Thank you! If you have a moment, please see my reply to John in #104.

We have been humans for a long time. Our ability to process complex data has been around for a long time, too. Action - Reaction. Instant Action - Instant Reaction. We are never trained in how to avoid a high speed automobile accident, we just do it. My third baseman is 28 years old. He has been playing baseball since he was 3 1/2 when his Dad taught him how to play catch. No orientation is required, no processing, only reaction. He knows everything there is to know about that moment and he knows what has to be done. The ball will always be round and first base will always be where it was yesterday.

In pool, there are two balls and they are sitting very, very still.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thank you! If you have a moment, please see my reply to John in #104.

We have been humans for a long time. Our ability to process complex data has been around for a long time, too. Action - Reaction. Instant Action - Instant Reaction. We are never trained in how to avoid a high speed automobile accident, we just do it. My third baseman is 28 years old. He has been playing baseball since he was 3 1/2 when his Dad taught him how to play catch. No orientation is required, no processing, only reaction. He knows everything there is to know about that moment and he knows what has to be done. The ball will always be round and first base will always be where it was yesterday.

In pool, there are two balls and they are sitting very, very still.

One time I was at Hard Times . Tang Hoa, a US Open finalist, was actually getting some pointers in aiming . Why? I have no clue . The aim instructor was teaching how to aim a shot . It's another version of CTE. Lord only knows how many versions there are .
Efren was seated next to me . He tells me I'd like to play that maestro . Frankly, Efren could have given the aim instructor the orange crush .
When they were done Efren set up the shot . He tells me and a common friend, you don't need aiming lessons on that shot . " You're not supposed to miss it ." He fires at it , ball goes down the hole quick.
Cue ball was near the left side pocket and object ball was near the bottom right corner.

 

[Boxcar]

One time I was at Hard Times . Tang Hoa, a US Open finalist, was actually getting some pointers in aiming . Why? I have no clue . The aim instructor was teaching how to aim a shot . It's another version of CTE. Lord only knows how many versions there is.
Efren was seated next to me . He tells me I'd like to play that maestro . Frankly, Efren could have given the aim instructor the orange crush .
When they were done Efren set up the shot . He tells me and a common friend, you don't need aiming lessons on that shot . " You're not supposed to miss it ." He fires at it , ball goes down the hole quick.
Cue ball was near the left side pocket and object ball was near the bottom right corner.

What Joey said.

 

[BC21]

Thank you! If you have a moment, please see my reply to John in #104.

We have been humans for a long time. Our ability to process complex data has been around for a long time, too. Action - Reaction. Instant Action - Instant Reaction. We are never trained in how to avoid a high speed automobile accident, we just do it. My third baseman is 28 years old. He has been playing baseball since he was 3 1/2 when his Dad taught him how to play catch. No orientation is required, no processing, only reaction. He knows everything there is to know about that moment and he knows what has to be done. The ball will always be round and first base will always be where it was yesterday.

In pool, there are two balls and they are sitting very, very still.

Yes, your 3rd baseman reacts to visual cues much like a tennis player on the receiving end of a 145mph serve.

The tennis ball leaves the server's racquet, crosses the net, bounces, and meets the receiving player's racquet in about 300ms (0.33 seconds).

Human beings can process and react to visual data within about 180ms. So there is simply no way a tennis player can watch a 145mph ball from around 70ft away and determine where it's going and get their body in a position to return the serve during the 300ms ball flight.

The player's reaction to the serve (subconscious muscle memory and neural networks required to return the serve) is triggered by certain visual cues in the server's form during the serve. Based on the cues, the receiver's body is already in motion to get to where they know the ball is going to be before the ball even leaves the server's racquet.

That's pretty damn amazing. Especially when figuring in that they've also already anticipated the proper angle and direction of their racquet in order to return the serve to a desired location. Because of the fact that their subconscious is in charge of the physical performance/action of returning the serve, their conscious mind has the freedom to keep processing visual data, and it formulates realtime strategy based on where the server is now and therefore where the ball should be returned to.

 

[Boxcar]

Yes, your 3rd baseman reacts to visual cues much like a tennis player on the receiving end of a 145mph serve.

The tennis ball leaves the server's racquet, crosses the net, bounces, and meets the receiving player's racquet in about 300ms (0.33 seconds).

Human beings can process and react to visual data within about 180ms. So there is simply no way a tennis player can watch a 145mph ball from around 70ft away and determine where it's going and get their body in a position to return the serve during the 300ms ball flight.

The player's reaction to the serve (subconscious muscle memory and neural networks required to return the serve) is triggered by certain visual cues in the server's form during the serve. Based on the cues, the receiver's body is already in motion to get to where they know the ball is going to be before the ball even leaves the server's racquet.

That's pretty damn amazing. Especially when figuring in that they've also already anticipated the proper angle and direction of their racquet in order to return the serve to a desired location. Because of the fact that their subconscious is in charge of the physical performance/action, the conscious mind (at the same time their body is automatically moving into action) has the freedom to keep processing visual data and formulate a strategy based on where the server is now and therefore where the ball should be returned to.

Well said!

Now, let's take it back to pool. If a tennis player can return service per your specifications above and place the return in exactly the spot in his opponent's court of his plan, and if my third baseman always hits the first baseman's glove right in the pocket after fielding a one hop cannon ball, why does anybody need "cte"?

 

[BC21]

Well said!

Now, let's take it back to pool. If a tennis player can return service per your specifications above and place the return in exactly the spot in his opponent's court of his plan, and if my third baseman always hits the first baseman's glove right in the pocket after fielding a one hop cannon ball, why does anybody need "cte"?

Because that tennis player doesn't ALWAYS hit the desired return serve. And that 3rd baseman doesn't ALWAYS snag a line drive from the hop and nail a perfect throw to 1st base.

Some pool players, like myself, don't need kicking systems. I do an excellent job kicking 1, 2 or 3 rails simply by looking at the shot. I'd say I'm 90% efficient and consistent at getting at hit on kick shots. That means I don't ALWAYS get a hit. If I used a system every time, maybe my success rate would go up to 95% or higher.

Good pool players do whatever we feel makes us more consistent. Those who don't probably lose more often than they win. If you feel ghostball works best for you, do it. If you just see and do, then do that. That's what I do, with exception to a few shots where fractional aiming (Poolology) comes in handy. If a player up the road feels like contact points works best, then that's what he's going to do. And if another player feels CTE works best, then that's what he should do.

I look out for my own interest, my own game, and if anyone decides they don't like the way I do it, I really don't care, because my game is about my preferences, not someone else's.

 

[Boxcar]

Because that tennis player doesn't ALWAYS hit the desired return serve. And that 3rd baseman doesn't ALWAYS snag a line drive from the hop and nail a perfect throw to 1st base.

Some pool players, like myself, don't need kicking systems. I do an excellent job kicking 1, 2 or 3 rails simply by looking at the shot. I'd say I'm 90% efficient and consistent at getting at hit on kick shots. That means I don't ALWAYS get a hit. If I used a system every time, maybe my success rate would go up to 95% or higher.

Good pool players do whatever we feel makes us more consistent. Those who don't probably lose more often than they win. If you feel ghostball works best for you, do it. If you just see and do, then do that. That's what I do, with exception to a few shots where fractional aiming (Poolology) comes in handy. If a player up the road feels like contact points works best, then that's what he's going to do. And if another player feels CTE works best, then that's what he should do.

I look out for my own interest, my own game, and if anyone decides they don't like the way I do it, I really don't care, because my game is about my preferences, not someone else's.

Do not conflate humanity and excellence and accomplishment. In this discussion, we always factor in natural imperfection. I've asked you before, "Why do you miss a straight in shot." This conversation is about instinct and reaction. The Dinosaurs didn't need the internet. As I mentioned to you a long time ago, I'm "aiming" when I'm sitting down looking at the table. I'm "aiming" when I'm walking around the table. I'm "aiming" all the time, but I'm not aiming.

In my third basemen scenario, one variable changes everything. Put a man on first. Where will I be then? Deep? No. Put a man on first and second, and then what? But as third baseman, my job never changes, and as a real third baseman, not a wannabee, I know everything there is to know, or I wouldn't be there.

But, on the other hand, pool is not a microcosm of life, it's just a game played indoors. Maybe, in reality, pool players need systems.

 

[The_JV]

Maybe, in reality, pool players need systems.

In that case I will moving forward always consider myself a Banger.

 

[Boxcar]

In that case I will moving forward always consider myself a Banger.

Can I get an Amen on 'dat?

 

[Dan White]

I look out for my own interest, my own game, and if anyone decides they don't like the way I do it, I really don't care, because my game is about my preferences, not someone else's.

I know this is out of context, but if a guy like Rempe or Sigel doesn't like something about my game I'm going to give their opinion a lot of weight.

 

[BC21]

....Maybe, in reality, pool players need systems.

The reality is actually pretty simple, and common sense....

Aspiring pool players that have plenty of time to invest in the good ol' HAMB (trial and error) method likely won't need an aiming system, other than standard ghostball. That's how most of us learned, and how most pros learned.

For aspiring players who have fulltime jobs and families and other interests besides pool, they could easily spend 20+ years playing here and there, maybe 5 games per week in an APA or VNEA league, and still never become a proficient shot maker through HAMB. Or for the newby or veteran player who seems to have no mojo or has lost the mojo for pocketing balls...For these players, a good aiming system can be very beneficial.

 

[BC21]

I know this is out of context, but if a guy like Rempe or Sigel doesn't like something about my game I'm going to give their opinion a lot of weight.

Sure, if there's something fundamentally whacko with your stance or stroke or shot selection or position play, etc.... But aiming? No. And that's what we're talking about. Aiming. Sending the balls into the pockets.

I don't care who the player is, no one (not Sigel or Rempe or SVB or Efren or Strickland, etc....) can tell me (or you) what works best for me (or you). Lol. Because they are not me, and they are not you.

 

[Boxcar]

The reality is actually pretty simple, and common sense....

Aspiring pool players that have plenty of time to invest in the good ol' HAMB (trial and error) method likely won't need an aiming system, other than standard ghostball. That's how most of us learned, and how most pros learned.

For aspiring players who have fulltime jobs and families and other interests besides pool, they could easily spend 20+ years playing here and there, maybe 5 games per week in an APA or VNEA league, and still never become a proficient shot maker through HAMB. Or for the newby or veteran player who seems to have no mojo or has lost the mojo for pocketing balls...For these players, a good aiming system can be very beneficial.

As is often the case, the high point of my day is a discussion with you. You know that I have been teasing out a reasonable conclusion and I know that you have the ability to engage at many levels. This last post of yours is a good example. Well said...and well done.

Respectfully,

Boxcar