Somebody Please Shoot Me!
- Thread starter Bigkahuna
- Start date
Actually - no.Bigkahuna said:
What I think is that the cloth was not correctly installed using the Simonis instructions.
I also think the pics you've posted don't have good detail so it's difficult to determine the weave of the cloth,
therefore the question whether the cloth was installed top side up.
I just spoke with Curt Cook, the national sales manager for Armand.
Krista had passed on your emails and messages and you should expect a call from him within the next couple of days concerning your issue. He is currently at a trade show but will try to contact you as soon as possible.
Dartman said:
Thank you for letting me know that somebody from Armand will be getting back to me.
I am going to try to borrow a video camera so I might be able to shoot a video and post it somewhere so this can be better illustrated.
I must say I am really surprised at the silence from most of the professionals that post here regularly.
Bigkahuna said:
Videos are pointless. I'm sure nobody doubts the ball drift you describe.
Frankly, I'm not surprised at all (about the silence) because IMO anyone else that chimes in is only going to restate what's already been said.
Work it out with Curt then get back to me.
I don't care how you install the cloth as in what direction...LOL bottom line is when it's stretched side to side for tightness...and it will be stretched side to side no matter how it's installed, the side to side pulls the grain of the cloth apart! What comes to mind as a way of explaining it, is if you've ever driven by a corn field that has been plowed, and you see all the rows of corn planted, that's what the cloth does when stretched tightly side to side, except it pulls the grain further apart leaving deeper, wider tracking ditches, and that's what causes the balls to roll back and forth, especially by the pockets. In 25 years, this is the only cloth I've ever used that the rail cloth has to be cut off instead of ripped off, because it comes apart if you try and tear off the rail cloth...bad!
Glen
Glen
Thank you
Glen,
That is an excellent explanation.
I started with a three inch side stretch and after seeing how bad this was I then backed it off to two inches the cloth has been installed so there is no backing off the stretch now. I think if I had backed it off anymore it would be loose.
:shrug: In your opinion do you think this will be an inherent problem with this cloth?
realkingcobra said:
Glen,
That is an excellent explanation.
I started with a three inch side stretch and after seeing how bad this was I then backed it off to two inches the cloth has been installed so there is no backing off the stretch now. I think if I had backed it off anymore it would be loose.
:shrug: In your opinion do you think this will be an inherent problem with this cloth?
Not to kick a dead dog but just for shlitz and grins -
http://www.bestbilliard.com/resources/bedcloth.htm
Of note is the remark about inconsistent stretch.
http://www.bestbilliard.com/resources/bedcloth.htm
Of note is the remark about inconsistent stretch.
All cloth tracks to some extent, even Simonis. The tracking will over a short time disappear, unless it's a woven cloth, in which case will form ditches in the cloth along the cushions as well as in other areas that have a lot of ball travel or wear. I don't feel that the Velocity cloth is a bad cloth, it's just not as well made as Simonis, or even Championship 3030 or Granito, as long as it's priced accordingly.Bigkahuna said:
But, as history serves us well, it won't be long before the cost of this cloth goes up as well....to being just short of the price of Simonis, it's all about the money, and not really the quality in my opinion, the wider the margin of profit between cost and sales...the more wholesalers and retailers like the product, for the most part, it's not always about what's the best!
Glen
realkingcobra said:
Good points.
Velocity prices will eventually increase as will other cloths.
Simonis has gone up twice in 2 years. Same with Championship if memory serves.
Velocity has not increased since coming to market in March 2007.
Like many bellwether products, someone will find a way to make a somewhat comparable product at lower (retail) price.
This was the case with Velocity and I'll speculate there will be more to follow.
I'll still hold to what I've said from the getgo that Velocity is a step up (from napped cloth) into
worsted cloth for those that can't or won't make the spend for well known and better quality cloth.
I agree with you Rick, as a step up from non-worsted wool cloths, but you know as well as I do, there's a lot of mechanics out here that'll push the heck out of the Velocity cloth as "just as good as" Simonis, only a little cheaper, only that little cheaper is way over the price of the cloth, and results in the sale of a dime for a dollar because most home owners wouldn't know the difference anyway, to each their own, I just consider it underhanded, and a secret way of squeezing more money out of the customer for the pocket book, instead of being up front and honest about the labor, PLUS material cost! Here in Vegas, a 9ft rip of 860 Simonis cloth runs about $350, because they have to order it in!!! But Championship is always available...go figure! wonder what they're trying to sell around hereDartman said:
Glen
Did anyone check the backside of the cloth to see if there might be a loose thread under the cloth or feel the cloth for a factory repair when they atach another tread to keep weaving.
I had Championship cloth several times were you can feel a thread under the bed cloth left it up no thread it was inbedded in the cloth from the factory.
I still havnt tried velocity cloth yet so i dont have any other ideas to check yet .
Craig
I had Championship cloth several times were you can feel a thread under the bed cloth left it up no thread it was inbedded in the cloth from the factory.
I still havnt tried velocity cloth yet so i dont have any other ideas to check yet .
Craig
Craig Thank you for the input
I had the cloth on and off twice. When I took the cloth off I flipped it to look for any debris and there was none found. I then felt around real good and found one spot that had some thread bunched up like in a knot. I have checked areas where the ball is moving off target and I don't really feel anything. It would not make sense that this is the cause because it does the ball wobble darting most anywhere on the table.
I am trying to be objective here. I have done the following to check for inconsistent stretch. I have taken an index card and cut out a square using a chalk cube. I then laid this on the table and counted the "corn rows". I tired this in about eight places on the table and counted 15 with the side of the square parallel with the side or end rail. 15 was consistent pretty much anywhere I checked. I Then counting several places on the rail which got really no stretch I counted 16 maybe 17 and this was consistent.
The "corn rows", weave, grain or what ever you might want to call it runs from one corner pocket to another. So, the corn rows run diagnoly through my test square. But, the balls can track either with or against the grain. Most noticeable as the ball is coming to a stop but you can usually see the ball track left then right at higher speeds.
I play league play four nights a week and am a seven in the APA and an "A" player in the other local league besides tournaments on the weekend. So, (besides from being single), I guess i am saying I watch a lot of balls rolling around and have yet to see balls track like this.
Hey, how are those antiques in your garage coming along?:wink:
Noah
n10spool said:
I had the cloth on and off twice. When I took the cloth off I flipped it to look for any debris and there was none found. I then felt around real good and found one spot that had some thread bunched up like in a knot. I have checked areas where the ball is moving off target and I don't really feel anything. It would not make sense that this is the cause because it does the ball wobble darting most anywhere on the table.
I am trying to be objective here. I have done the following to check for inconsistent stretch. I have taken an index card and cut out a square using a chalk cube. I then laid this on the table and counted the "corn rows". I tired this in about eight places on the table and counted 15 with the side of the square parallel with the side or end rail. 15 was consistent pretty much anywhere I checked. I Then counting several places on the rail which got really no stretch I counted 16 maybe 17 and this was consistent.
The "corn rows", weave, grain or what ever you might want to call it runs from one corner pocket to another. So, the corn rows run diagnoly through my test square. But, the balls can track either with or against the grain. Most noticeable as the ball is coming to a stop but you can usually see the ball track left then right at higher speeds.
I play league play four nights a week and am a seven in the APA and an "A" player in the other local league besides tournaments on the weekend. So, (besides from being single), I guess i am saying I watch a lot of balls rolling around and have yet to see balls track like this.
Hey, how are those antiques in your garage coming along?:wink:
Noah
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Dartman said:About time you tried a rip don't you think?
I would love too but i'm to busy full filling customer request for Simmonis cloth or the super cheap stuff.
I am also back to working for the cable company they made me a great offer to came back as a tech. So i'm trying out for a few more months but I still work on tables during the weekends.
have a good day
craig
Martman100
Martman
I have the same problem with my Velocity but it is due to it being my first time ever doing cloth. I did a Simonis stretch on it and that is not the way to go with this cloth. I need to restretch but I have been too lazy. I think the cloth is a good cloth for the money and I wanted to purchase it for my first cloth install attempt so I could get my feet wet. I stretched about 4 to 5 on length and 3 to 4 on width but ended up very wavy mainly because it was my first time. I will say my cloth is very tight but it tracks terrible at low speeds.
Whenever I restretch I will use the end to end and then side to side but not be as aggressive on the side to side. I play on Simonis 860 at the local hall and I feel it to be a more accurate rolling cloth but for the price difference you cannot beat Velocity for the home.
If you want to see what the process looks like for the first time install on a lower end table, I took many pictures through the process. Any place you see the shadows from side to side is a wave in the cloth due to stretching. Mainly at the ends and probably more due to me not really knowing the "Simoniz" or any stretching process very well.
http://picasaweb.google.com/underwood.martin/ClothInstallation#
And no need to criticize, I have already been taken through the paces on this one.
Whenever I restretch I will use the end to end and then side to side but not be as aggressive on the side to side. I play on Simonis 860 at the local hall and I feel it to be a more accurate rolling cloth but for the price difference you cannot beat Velocity for the home.
If you want to see what the process looks like for the first time install on a lower end table, I took many pictures through the process. Any place you see the shadows from side to side is a wave in the cloth due to stretching. Mainly at the ends and probably more due to me not really knowing the "Simoniz" or any stretching process very well.
http://picasaweb.google.com/underwood.martin/ClothInstallation#
And no need to criticize, I have already been taken through the paces on this one.
IMO you did a good job.Martman100 said:And no need to criticize, I have already been taken through the paces on this one.
If the end to end stretch is good, just restretch side to side.
Snap a chalk line on the cloth on each side and use it to make sure the stretch is even.