Someone explain Black Boar prices to me.
- Thread starter JCIN
- Start date
Craig ,BB Custom Cues said:JCIN (Justin)-- To try and answer some/all of your questions --Tony has told me to pass along that if you ever want, you (as well as anyone who wants) is welcome to come see his shop and see what he does. Ask anyone, he has always had open doors to anyone who wishes to come in and visit.
Craig
I appreciate his very generous offer and from reading your site Mr. Sciannella looks to be a very interesting man to meet. If circumstances ever allow he and I to get together I would love to see his shop.
I want to make clear that I in no way wanted to downplay Mr. Sciannella's hard work and craftsmanship. I was really curious as to what forces drove the prices so high. I respect the hell out of what he does. I have worked around machines and built custom pistols for years so I have a vague understanding of how difficult the craft of cuemaking must be. Steel don't move much when you cut it, wood does. I can't imagine the talent required to blend all of the different skills needed to produce a cue of the level that the upper echelon makers build.
Thank you for your frank, educational and well mannered posts. You obviously have a passion for great cues. If I have upset anyone or ruffled any feathers with this thread, it was not my intention. To me it is just an interesting phenomenon and I was curious about it.
Thanks to everyone for their responses.
It seems to me that when someone pays through the nose for a szam or a bushka, they are buying a piece of billiard history. Yes they are fantastic cues with a unique "feel" or "hit" to them but bottom line is they are limited in quantity and only getting more so.
Black Boars as far as I can tell are less history and more art. I dont think anyone would argue this man isnt an artist and frankly of all the cues ive seen I think his cues are the most pleasing to my eye. Would I pay those prices for some thing that I was going to bang around in my van or nick and ding up with regular play absolutly not but for shear appreciation of craftmanship, if I had the resources sure why not.
I Think its a matter of perspective. IMHO
Black Boars as far as I can tell are less history and more art. I dont think anyone would argue this man isnt an artist and frankly of all the cues ive seen I think his cues are the most pleasing to my eye. Would I pay those prices for some thing that I was going to bang around in my van or nick and ding up with regular play absolutly not but for shear appreciation of craftmanship, if I had the resources sure why not.
I Think its a matter of perspective. IMHO
someone mentioned how it better have gold and diamonds in it... I noticed on the site:
"Inlays- The inlays in Black Boar cues contribute only to the artistic value. Tony enjoys creating designs of Ivory, Exotic Hardwoods, Gold, and pure fine Silver. The pockets for the inlays are so precisely cut that once an inlay has been placed in the cue it is nearly impossible to remove it without damage, even without the use of glue or epoxy."
The components section gives you an idea of what goes into them. I can't say that I'd consider ANY stick worth 5 digits, but people are willing to pay it so that makes it fair I guess.
PS to Jcin: The black boar site really impressed you?! I think really it's just down to having good hi quality photographs that were done by a pro. The actual site graphics and layout are pretty routine and something I could whip up pretty easily. If anyone wants a site that good, I work pretty cheap =) But I can't speak for the pro photographer...
"Inlays- The inlays in Black Boar cues contribute only to the artistic value. Tony enjoys creating designs of Ivory, Exotic Hardwoods, Gold, and pure fine Silver. The pockets for the inlays are so precisely cut that once an inlay has been placed in the cue it is nearly impossible to remove it without damage, even without the use of glue or epoxy."
The components section gives you an idea of what goes into them. I can't say that I'd consider ANY stick worth 5 digits, but people are willing to pay it so that makes it fair I guess.
PS to Jcin: The black boar site really impressed you?! I think really it's just down to having good hi quality photographs that were done by a pro. The actual site graphics and layout are pretty routine and something I could whip up pretty easily. If anyone wants a site that good, I work pretty cheap =) But I can't speak for the pro photographer...
I said it looked the best in the Pool world. Look around and show me I'm wrong. It has a style throughout that conveys the point that the designer/owner is trying to make about the cues and the maker.CreeDo said:
I am not a big fan of complex site design with tons of Flash that after the 1st 4 seconds of "Oh neat" you just want to get to the info. Besides, I am a sucker for great photography
Whoever did those knows what he or she is doing. The content is well written, nicely organized and there is a depth of knowledge that is unusual in the pool web world.In my opinion it is just a great site. If you have some on par or better I would love to look at them.
SUPERSTAR said:
I do not know about Black Boar cues, but Superstar's Avatar has two incredibly fine instruments that probably play out of this world
I had one of the early Black Boar cues and in my opinion it was much the same as every other steel jointed 5/16x14 cue, maybe they are different now. Because that cue was not any more dynamic than many of the other cues I have owned over the years. More power to Tony and his two sellers, get the money while you can.
-don
How about the older BB's?
Are the older Black Boar cues commanding a similar price these days? My dad bought one in around 1990. It is a really nice cue, he later bought my grandpa a similar BB. I think back then he paid around 2k per cue, maybe a little more. My dad isn't playing right now, he would be really interested to find out what those cues are worth now.JCIN said:I said it looked the best in the Pool world. Look around and show me I'm wrong. It has a style throughout that conveys the point that the designer/owner is trying to make about the cues and the maker.
I am not a big fan of complex site design with tons of Flash that after the 1st 4 seconds of "Oh neat" you just want to get to the info. Besides, I am a sucker for great photography
In my opinion it is just a great site. If you have some on par or better I would love to look at them.
I can't imagine those cues going up in value any higher. You would have to think that they would be a bad investment at that price. They seem like an over valued stock that has reached its peak, and even if it continues to improve as a company, it can't reach the expectations set for it. This thread is a good example of people noticing the over valued nature of BB cues. If these prices for cues weren't so out of line with other cues of similar history , scarcity, and playability, then they may not seem so over valued, but they are much higher than the average balabushka and other cues of that sort, so I believe that this will be an all time high for these cues.
I mean really, Tom Cruise hasn't even used one in a movie yet, so how can it be that great!!j/k
I mean really, Tom Cruise hasn't even used one in a movie yet, so how can it be that great!!j/k
Basically, people are paying more now than ever before. Whether they keep going up is anyone's guess. Most people I have spoke with think they have reached they're peak. But who knows?thebigdog said:
What is your definition of top dollar? In the current market most guys would love to get middle dollar.
Currently Black Boar is one of the hottest cues going, and as such hasn't been effected as much as some brands, usually not a bad time to sell a cue.
Are the early Black Boar cues in the same price range as the Jerry Franklin Southwest cues? The Black Boar cues my dad has, were early cues made around 1990. Purchased from the cuemaker at around the $2,000 range. Do you think they would sell for much more than that today?JCIN said:
One is a 4 point cocobola with birds eye maple sleeve. With ivory inlays in the butt. The other is similar, but six point with ivory inlays in the butt and points.
Both these cues were very nice, but I would take a Jerry Franklin any day over the Black Boar cues I have played with. I think I would take a Paul Mottey over the B.B. as well. I guess I have the same question as you, why are people paying so much for the Black Boar?
If I was in your position I don't think I would care why...just when.thebigdog said:
If the cues and shafts are in good shape and straight it's sounds like you should have no problems getting a Franklin or 3 out of them. Craig mentioned above that he is actively seeking 6 point cues. By all accounts he is an excellent person to deal with, were I you, he would be my first contact.
As posted earlier by Craig, a BB collector and historian:
My best observations in the values of BB cues is basicly:
4pt=$2,500+
6pt=$4,000+
8pt=$7,000+ for older 8 pointers
8pt=$14,000+ for the newer 8 pointers
A lot of the value determination will be based on the individual cue; scarcity, inlays, etc. Here's the site link, if you have questions about your dad's cues, this is the best place to get answers.
http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp
My best observations in the values of BB cues is basicly:
4pt=$2,500+
6pt=$4,000+
8pt=$7,000+ for older 8 pointers
8pt=$14,000+ for the newer 8 pointers
A lot of the value determination will be based on the individual cue; scarcity, inlays, etc. Here's the site link, if you have questions about your dad's cues, this is the best place to get answers.
http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp
Well, i remember a long time ago, probably before the internet went buck wild, how when it would come up about what type of cue i was using, how people would just shrug it off, and either say something positive, or something negative.
When asked how much i payed for it used, you'd have some people who thought i got a good deal, and some who thought i got robbed.
When they asked me how much I'd sell it for, i never replied. Even when decent offers would come.
Cut to the family friend who just happens to be Japanese.
Regardless of what prices were thrown out by people at the local pool halls or people at billiard expos, this guy consistently offered me more, despite me never selling. He is a doctor by trade, but far from a serious pool player. He's more of a pool enthusiast.
To be perfectly honest, i think the reason he was able to offer so much was because of some economic factors that to this day i don't really understand.
I remember my friends dad used to go to Tokyo on business, and he'd always come home with stories of regular lunches that cost $200 plus and how ridiculous the prices were for him being an American, but how it didn't even phase the Japanese. It was their standard.
If that economic factor is still even remotely like it was back in the day, to offer someone some decent cash here in the states, would still basically cost them nothing, despite it being considered a high price here.
So if you take that into account, and add to that the fact that there are only 2 people who have kind of a lock on the BB market, and the fact that one of them is Japanese.
Who knows what the marketing possibilities are.
It would be interesting to see the whole market dynamic to figure out what parts are natural, and what parts are being controlled or manipulated and for what purpose.
Either way, i still think Tony makes a great product, and i have hit with Ginas and ZBotis and many high end cues, and i still think that Tony's is the best. FOR ME anyway.
When asked how much i payed for it used, you'd have some people who thought i got a good deal, and some who thought i got robbed.
When they asked me how much I'd sell it for, i never replied. Even when decent offers would come.
Cut to the family friend who just happens to be Japanese.
Regardless of what prices were thrown out by people at the local pool halls or people at billiard expos, this guy consistently offered me more, despite me never selling. He is a doctor by trade, but far from a serious pool player. He's more of a pool enthusiast.
To be perfectly honest, i think the reason he was able to offer so much was because of some economic factors that to this day i don't really understand.
I remember my friends dad used to go to Tokyo on business, and he'd always come home with stories of regular lunches that cost $200 plus and how ridiculous the prices were for him being an American, but how it didn't even phase the Japanese. It was their standard.
If that economic factor is still even remotely like it was back in the day, to offer someone some decent cash here in the states, would still basically cost them nothing, despite it being considered a high price here.
So if you take that into account, and add to that the fact that there are only 2 people who have kind of a lock on the BB market, and the fact that one of them is Japanese.
Who knows what the marketing possibilities are.
It would be interesting to see the whole market dynamic to figure out what parts are natural, and what parts are being controlled or manipulated and for what purpose.
Either way, i still think Tony makes a great product, and i have hit with Ginas and ZBotis and many high end cues, and i still think that Tony's is the best. FOR ME anyway.
thebigdog said:
Some are, some are not....
I'm almost brand new to custom cues, only having started looking at them six months ago or so when I got my first table.
I'm also not much of an economist, having gotten a C in Economics 101 as a freshman in college 20 years or so ago.
That being said...here's my two cents:
There have been a bunch of replies saying basically "that's supply and demand, dude." The author of this thread has basically replied that he understands supply and demand, dude.
Maybe it would be more helpful if the answer was "that's supply and demand in the internet age, dude." By this I mean--HAS THE AGE OF THE INTERNET COMPLETELY CHANGED THE CUSTOM CUE MARKET?
I have to imagine that in the old, pre-internet boom days, it would take a long time for a cuemaker to jump up a notch from lower level cuemaker to mid level, mid level to upper level, etc. Reputation for playability and "flipabiity" would be dictated by word of mouth at the pool halls, tournaments, etc.
Now, with thousands of people reading this and other sites every day, isn't it possible for a cuemaker to take off in status much more quickly?
A basic example: I've heard of cuemaker X, but he hasn't gotten much hype, his cues seem to have a good reputation for playability and quality, and can be purchased for $300-$400. Within a week's time span, I read a couple of posts saying basically "Just got my new cuemaker X in the mail and it hits a ton and is gorgeous. Well worth the long wait. Thanks cuemaker X!!"
I then read a couple of posts the next week where cuemaker x's cues are going for slightly higher. There are multiple posts from prospective buyers the same day as the posting saying "PM sent." The cue seems to sell right away for asking price.
Once this happens a number of times, hasn't this cuemaker gone up in most of our minds from low level to mid level? This same concept would of course apply at all price points in the market.
Second disclaimer: This isn't a comment at all on Black Boars. I am not, repeat, not, saying that they've benefited from internet buzz or hype.
Just a general proposition about the role of the internet in determining market prices and a cuemaker's reputation.
Hope this post makes sense and isn't too rambling. Haven't had any coffee yet.
I'm also not much of an economist, having gotten a C in Economics 101 as a freshman in college 20 years or so ago.
That being said...here's my two cents:
There have been a bunch of replies saying basically "that's supply and demand, dude." The author of this thread has basically replied that he understands supply and demand, dude.
Maybe it would be more helpful if the answer was "that's supply and demand in the internet age, dude." By this I mean--HAS THE AGE OF THE INTERNET COMPLETELY CHANGED THE CUSTOM CUE MARKET?
I have to imagine that in the old, pre-internet boom days, it would take a long time for a cuemaker to jump up a notch from lower level cuemaker to mid level, mid level to upper level, etc. Reputation for playability and "flipabiity" would be dictated by word of mouth at the pool halls, tournaments, etc.
Now, with thousands of people reading this and other sites every day, isn't it possible for a cuemaker to take off in status much more quickly?
A basic example: I've heard of cuemaker X, but he hasn't gotten much hype, his cues seem to have a good reputation for playability and quality, and can be purchased for $300-$400. Within a week's time span, I read a couple of posts saying basically "Just got my new cuemaker X in the mail and it hits a ton and is gorgeous. Well worth the long wait. Thanks cuemaker X!!"
I then read a couple of posts the next week where cuemaker x's cues are going for slightly higher. There are multiple posts from prospective buyers the same day as the posting saying "PM sent." The cue seems to sell right away for asking price.
Once this happens a number of times, hasn't this cuemaker gone up in most of our minds from low level to mid level? This same concept would of course apply at all price points in the market.
Second disclaimer: This isn't a comment at all on Black Boars. I am not, repeat, not, saying that they've benefited from internet buzz or hype.
Just a general proposition about the role of the internet in determining market prices and a cuemaker's reputation.
Hope this post makes sense and isn't too rambling. Haven't had any coffee yet.
I have no doubt, Dave, that you're right about the internet having a big impact on cuemakers. Especially on a forum such as this where cuemakers, buyers and sellers can post photos, exchange comments, and sell their cues. When many knowledgable people report a certain cue plays great, has great workmanship, and (especially) is hard to find and buy, demand goes up...quickly for some. Pre-internet exposure was primarily by word of mouth or an occasional ad in a billiards magazine, now, the word can get out very quickly. If a hot cuemaker does not increase supply, waiting lists are created and demand creates a buzz, allowing SOME cuemakers to increase their prices...some don't though. IMO, a great cuemaker is going to get recognized, but your statement about the internet making it happen faster is right on. I think this is a good thing, as the cream always rises to the top and the sooner the better.
I think it is proven that the internet can create and change markets. Dale Perry anyone? I also know that the internet re-enforces the market that is already established due to the availability of knowledge to new and inexperienced buyers.219Dave said:
Example: A guy who has played with production cues his whole life and knows of the custom market but no specifics, can come here and in a week of searching have a pretty good basic understanding of who the best guys are. That is one reason we get 9 year waiting lists.
Basically the rich get richer faster
The other side is that a new cuemaker can skip just selling to the locals for 10 years before he gets a rep through word of mouth. For virtually no expense he can sell to the whole world.
The internet effect plays a role in the Black Boar phenomenon in my opinion. But the bigger role is a small number of buyers willing to pay premium prices no matter what the wider market would dictate without those buyers.
It is supply and demand, dude.