Something I found out about most Phenolic used for cues...

Roger Long said:
I've always though that all phenolics were the same, so it puzzled me whenever I would see a broken phenolic joint collar. Now I understand how that can happen. Thanks, Marshall.

Roger
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They are not all the same.
The manufacturing process has been changing. I have some old paper-based black phenolic used on cues made popular by Hank Corsair ( Black Beauty ).
I was told back when they were great, they would squeegee each layer of linen before the next batch of resin goes on top and so on.
In the case of black linen phenolics now, the linen are no longer black when they start. Hence, no longer the "double-black" it is known for.
Broken phenolic collars IMHO is mostly caused by too much pressure due to press-fitting. IMHO threading them and using slow industrial epoxy to set them fixes that. That way there is not much side to side pressure on the collar.
I know a quality phenolic when I thread them and the cutter slows down b/c it's hard and the linens do not tear out.
Garolite brand is about the lowest quality.
 
JoeyInCali said:
They are not all the same.
The manufacturing process has been changing. I have some old paper-based black phenolic used on cues made popular by Hank Corsair ( Black Beauty ).
I was told back when they were great, they would squeegee each layer of linen before the next batch of resin goes on top and so on.
In the case of black linen phenolics now, the linen are no longer black when they start. Hence, no longer the "double-black" it is known for.
Broken phenolic collars IMHO is mostly caused by too much pressure due to press-fitting. IMHO threading them and using slow industrial epoxy to set them fixes that. That way there is not much side to side pressure on the collar.
I know a quality phenolic when I thread them and the cutter slows down b/c it's hard and the linens do not tear out.
Garolite brand is about the lowest quality.
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Piercyexclusive said:
which way were they layered are what type weaving did it have?
I am asking about when you thread them
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If they came from true tubes , the linens are truely spun.
If they come from flat boards, the linen will show on two sides ( like those canvas phenolic ferrules ).
 
Piercyexclusive said:
phenolic can be used for heat insulation between panels and sometimes in cars. bearing cages for choppers is one and as container for acidic and corrosive materials ... many more
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I believe that was what they were made for.
Not too many things are really made for pool cues .

If you want the hardest phenolic, G10 would be the hardest .
It's the closest to stags imo.
I mainly use stags and I thread them.
 
Roger Long said:
I've always though that all phenolics were the same, so it puzzled me whenever I would see a broken phenolic joint collar. Now I understand how that can happen. Thanks, Marshall.

Roger
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That is beyond me, I have never seen a Phenolic Collar break, only plastic collars.

I will have to pay close attention in the future, my definition of plastic is fiberless, and Phenolic thermostatically molded using interlaced fibers of linen or other materials.

Now I have seen the fiberless plastic material crack and break many times when used at stress point such as collars on a cue.

Take care Roger.
 
Piercyexclusive said:
the electrical conductivity of phenolic has nothing to to with cue making.
It's the way it's made and the final product of how it was made.
ok...
example....
when you glue something in the core of the cue and there is a gap....a void... in the cue between the layers of the core and the cored wood what happens? doesn't this affect the cue? if you use wood for a cue and there was a soft spot and in trying to stabilize the wood you missed a spot or a section wasn't quit stabilized .... doesn't it affect the cue?
Same with phenolic...
when the linen is pressed with the liquids there are times when bubbles will developed... now cooking the material will usually rid the bubbles but sometimes it doesn't.
this affects the hit ... a piece of air filled phenolic, and or a piece of uneven pressed piece of linen is like playing with a cue with a void in the core.... the transfer of energy and or vibration will be diluted and in sense create a different hit.

now when hooked up to my sound wave machine this was shown as so.
an ISO graded phenolic of 95 or above creates less spikes on the line, the energy it created was more of a curve and allowed at least 82 percent of the energy (unaltered and natural energy developed from the shaft)(compared to wood joints) to travel back to the but end of the cue and to the hands of the player..

This means less vibrations.

now an ISO graded phenolic with 80 or lower creates 60 percent more spikes(vibrations) and less curves as energy travels through the cue....and in sense alters the natural energy produced by the "hit" so the feel is different.
the bubbles in the sheets of linen or an uneven press distorts and sometimes magnifies the vibration created but the energy created upon contact(by the shafted used). Due to the un-uniformed energy it creates and as it travels the cues natural "hit" will be altered and can be felt.

this means more vibration. (the vibration created by this is so distorted that I believe in the end could actually affect the joints in the players with prolonged use. you will literally be shaking your bones.) this part is a theory...


This is nor good or bad....
Because "hit" is subjective.

I am going to do a more in depth investigation of this.
I will have controlled shafts with interchangeable collars and have a controlled butt with an interchangeable joint.
I will have several joint materials to test and see what else actually keeps the natural energy of the shaft to travel through the joint material and which ones don't.

until then this is the best I can describe what I know so far....
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Good luck with your investigation, but I will stick with the product I am using. I don't think that the additional money for the cost of this material will really make that much differance long term. Like I said to another poster to this thread I have never seen a Phenolic Collar break and if some accomplishs this they have abused the cue anyway.

Oh and by the way, what does ISO stand for?

Thanks and have a great night.
 
manwon said:
Good luck with your investigation, but I will stick with the product I am using. I don't think that the additional money for the cost of this material will really make that much differance long term. Like I said to another poster to this thread I have never seen a Phenolic Collar break and if some accomplishs this they have abused the cue anyway.

Oh and by the way, what does ISO stand for?

Thanks and have a great night.
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Wouldn't be simpler if you just do a hardness test ?
 
I buy phenolics is a wide range of grades , I've never heard ISO as a reference to any grade. To my knowledge ISO is scale or reference used for quality control testing.

Phenolics are grades under a few different ranges most relate to hardness , capacidance or resistance to conduct and performance under various temperature conditions.

Most of these are NEMA specs. For example :



NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) designated laminates are unclad materials comprised of different resin systems, some incorporating woven glass weave, non-woven and some none at all. Each laminate exhibits unique electrical, mechanical and chemical performance characteristics and have specific uses based on these criteria. These laminates fabricated into components by New Process Fibre have a variety of uses in the Aerospace, Automotive, Electronic, Industrial and Petroleum Industries.

X = Paper Phenolic Resin – Mechanical Grade
XP = Paper Phenolic Resin – Mechanical Grade – Hot Punch-able Grade
XPC = Paper Phenolic Resin – Mechanical Grade – Cold Punch-able Grade
XX = Paper Phenolic - General Purpose Grade
XXP = Paper Phenolic Resin – Mechanical Grade – Hot Punch-able
XXX = Paper Phenolic Resin – Electrical Grade
FR-1 = Fire Retardant – Paper Phenolic – Mechanical Grade – Hot Punch-able
FR-2 = Fire Retardant – Paper Phenolic – Electrical Grade – Cold Punch-able
FR-3 = Fire Retardant - Paper Epoxy – Electrical Grade
L = Cotton Phenolic Resin – Machine-able Grade
LE = Cotton Phenolic Resin – Electrical Grade
C = Cotton Phenolic Resin - Mechanical Grade
CE = Canvas Phenolic Resin - General Purpose Grade
FR-4, & FR-5 = Fire Retardant - Glass Epoxy Resin – Mechanical Grade
G-3 = Woven Glass - Phenolic Resin - General Purpose Grade
G-5 & G-9 = Woven Glass Melamine Resin - General Purpose Grade
G-7 = Woven Glass Silicone Resin – General Purpose Grade
G-10, & G-11 = Woven Glass - Epoxy Resin – Electrical Grade
GPO-1 = Random Weave Glass - Polyester Resin – General Purpose Grade
GPO-2 & 3 = Random Weave Glass - Polyester – General Purpose Grade

Each will also contain detailled specs as to the other ranges I mentioned. Something like this :

Properties G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
Glass Reinforced Glass Reinforced Melamne Silicone Glass Paper Paper Paper Canvas Linen
Tensile Strength
•Lengthwise, PSI 40,000 40,000 37,000 23,000 20,000 16,000 15,000 9,500 12,500
•Crosswise, PSI 35,000 35,000 30,000 18,000 16,000 13,000 12,000 7,500 88,750
Compressive Strength G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Flatwise, PSI 60,000 60,000 70,000 45,000 36,000 34,000 32,000 37,000 37,000
•Edgewise, PSI 35,000 35,000 25,000 14,000 19,000 23,000 25,500 23,500 25,000
Flexural Strength
•Lengthwise, PSI 55,000 55,000 55,000 23,000 25,000 15,000 13,500 17,000 15,000
•Crosswise, PSI 45,000 45,000 35,000 20,000 22,000 14,000 11,800 15,000 13,750
Modulus of Elasticity in Flex G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Lengthwise, PSI 2,700,000 2,700,000 2,500,000 1,400,000 1,800,000 1,400,000 1,300,000 950,000 1,050,000
•Crosswise, PSI 2,200,000 2,200,000 2,000,000 1,200,000 1,300,000 1,100,000 1,000,000 850,000 850,000
Shear Strength, PSI 19,000 19,000 20,000 17,000 12,000 11,000 10,000 11,500 11,750
Izod Impact G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Flatwise, ft lb per inch of notch 7 7 12 8.5 4 1.3 1 3.2, 2.3 2.5, 1.8
•Edgewise, ft lb per inch of notch 5.5 5.5 8 7.5 0.5 0.35 0.35 1.9, 1.4 1.1, 1
Rockwell Hardness (M Scale) 110 110 120 100 110 105 110 104 105
Specific Gravity 1.82 1.82 1.9 1.68 1.36 1.34 1.32 1.35 1.34
Coefficient of Thermal Expansion G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•cm/cm/ deg C x 10 -5 0.9 0.9 1 1 6 2 1.4 2 2
Water Absorption G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•.062" Thick, % per 24 hrs 0.25 0.25 0.8 0.3 6 2 1.4 2.2 2.5
•.125" Thick, % per 24 hrs 0.15 0.15 0.7 0.2 3.3 1.3 0.95 1.6 1.6
•.500" Thick, % per 24 hrs 0.1 0.1 0.4 0.15 1.1 0.55 0.45 0.75 0.7
Dielectric Strength, volt/mil G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Perpendicular to Laminations; short
•.062" Thick 500 500 400 400 700 700 650 200/500 200/500
•.125" Thick 400 400 350 350 500 500 470 150/360 150/360
Dissipaton Factor G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Condition A, 1 megacycle 0.025 0.025 0.017 0.003 0.06 0.045 0.038 .1, .055 .1, .055
Dielectric Constant G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Condition A, 1 megacycle 5.2 5.2 7.12 4.2 6 5.5 5.3 5.8 5.8
Insulation Resistance G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•Condition, 96 hrs at 90% relative humidity (in mega ohms) 200,000 200,000 10,000 200,000 - - - - -
Flame Resistance
•Underwriter Labs, Classification 94V-O 94V-O 94V-O 94V-O 94HB 94HB 94HB 94HB 94HB
Bond Strength, in lbs 2,000 16,000 1,700 650 700 800 950 1,800 1,600
Maximum Continuous Operating Temperature G10 FR4 G11 FR5 G9 G7 X XX XXX C/CE L/LE
•All Phenolics can withstand -100F 285°F 300°F 285°F 465°F 285°F 285°F 285°F 265°F 265°F

These are the kind of order specs I use with most suppliers when the specifics of grade are paramount.

Hope that helps this discussion some.
 
manwon said:
Good luck with your investigation, but I will stick with the product I am using. I don't think that the additional money for the cost of this material will really make that much differance long term. Like I said to another poster to this thread I have never seen a Phenolic Collar break and if some accomplishs this they have abused the cue anyway.

Oh and by the way, what does ISO stand for?

Thanks and have a great night.
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Not sure how this will look but heres a quick scan from a catalog I happen to have handy here at home.

Pheno-Spec-Sheet.jpg
 
Piercyexclusive said:
iso- International Organization for Standardization
or ISO known in America
an organization to regulate the standard of manufacturing
there are standards that a organization puts forth to be followed when manufacturing (aka= regulation)
by the way who regulates our phenolic for cue making?
i know you know what ISO stands for why ask?
whats your point that your trying to make?
I mean this as only a question not to be con screwed as an attack on you.
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I have not taken anything you have said as an attack, throughout this thread you have said that ISO is a grading standard used for Phenolic, I am always interested in learning something new so I did some research on the term. I could find nothing where such a standard exists, I am only trying to understand what you are making referance too. I must have missed something, could you explain how ISO is used to grade Phenolic?


Oh and by the way, I also saw were you stated that you have large quanities of Phenolic. If you are going to sell it because it doesn't meet the grade you would like to use let me know so long as what you have for Black is the typical double Black that most of us use for cues.

Thanks, and again I am just trying learn something new, and currently I am confused.
 
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I am no expert. But as I understand ISO grading it goes like this:

Item Blah- Blah
specifications for hardness, clarity tensile strength and so on for said Blah-Blah.

The purity and closeness to the industry standards set for Blah Blah stated as a percent. Did they make the product to the exact specification. If they didn't they get a percentage rating of being off. The hardness may be off the colour may be off, internal layering may be off, bubbles and defects and so on.

What it comes down to is a consistancy rating. If you buy ISO 97% this month and buy the exact same product 10 months later it will be basicly the same. And differing vendors will act the same. An 80% rating and so on will mean a more inconsistant product. You just don't know what the inconsistancy is.

You never know what you're getting. I work in the auto industry and deal with ISO's on occasion. Hope this helps. And I understand where the OP is coming from. Good thread.

Mark Shuman
 
Piercyexclusive said:
I have in the past been buying phenolic from many suppliers to use for cues and I have quit a stock of it.

one day I had a machinist guy come by my house to check out a cue for sale. when he came it he saw that I had some phenolic piled up. he then asked me if they were for sale. I said sure what do you need. he bought about 3/4 of what I had. then he came back just today cause he patiently waited till I was out of the hospital and told me the following.

the phenolic I had bought were low grade phenolic.
the iso was about 75-85 percent.
I asked him what that meant.
he then proceeded to explain that phenolic with that grade is mainly used for electrical purposes and that that sometimes anything less than 80 has bubbles and or defects.
he then gave me a piece that had an iso of 97 percent. and let me tell you the difference is noticeable. I installed one on a cue for test purposes and hit with it and the hit was much different from those I have been using. So anyways no more buying phenolic from most major suppliers for cues for me.
I will be buying from a company that makes bearing for nasa from now on the iso they have are 97 and above. might be a little more expensive but I think the players will like that more.
My intentions are not to start a fight with anyone just a little information I found and would like to share it with people.
to me ISO grading is now something I will consider when installing phenolic to my cue.

Marshall Piercy
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Have you found the supplier of the stuff you want? Do they sell in small quantities? Many of these companies don't really stock but run-to-order. You can't call and say send me 6 feet of something. I used to deal with Spaulding and if I remember right it was like $2500.00 minimum and a 3 month lead time on the order. The suppliers you are knocking as selling poor grade junk as you seem to imply, do a tremendous service. Most of what they sell would be completely not available to the average cue maker at all. In fact hearing a $10,000 minimum order is not unusably. Cue makers are nickle dime guys. You would have nothing to buy if not for the investment of the suppliers. I hope when you find these suppliers that will fill small orders you share them. Funny, I read on here all the time someone wanting to buy a foot of something and complaining about Atlas having a $50.00 minimum. Wait till they get into the real world of doing business with a manufacture. There is probably nothing made that can't be gotten in many grades. But in most cases who cares. I doubt we need materials for cues in military grade or would be willing to pay 20 times the price and feel it justified. What you just learned is although interesting, and common knowledge by the way, may not really be that relevant to cue making or at last only to a small degree. There is always a "Point of diminishing returns" with everything. No matter how much more you put in you can only get so much back. That is not to say you should not always be striving to learn more and make the best product you can.
 
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phread59 said:
I am no expert. But as I understand ISO grading it goes like this:

Item Blah- Blah
specifications for hardness, clarity tensile strength and so on for said Blah-Blah.

The purity and closeness to the industry standards set for Blah Blah stated as a percent. Did they make the product to the exact specification. If they didn't they get a percentage rating of being off. The hardness may be off the colour may be off, internal layering may be off, bubbles and defects and so on.

What it comes down to is a consistancy rating. If you buy ISO 97% this month and buy the exact same product 10 months later it will be basicly the same. And differing vendors will act the same. An 80% rating and so on will mean a more inconsistant product. You just don't know what the inconsistancy is.

You never know what you're getting. I work in the auto industry and deal with ISO's on occasion. Hope this helps. And I understand where the OP is coming from. Good thread.

Mark Shuman
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Thank you for your input.
 
PLEASE READ-its relivant

this is relivant to this thread so please read, ill keep it short,

we play 21-30 days a month at my house, its awalys the same guys and what ever champion seems to be in town.

to the point,I let who ever is here use what ever break cue they want, I dont care about the little cracks in the CB, and in 2 years with SVB, JA, Mike Deschaine(real hard breaker)etc. I have only seen 2 marks on the CB, I have 3 CB's that we rotate between and 12 spares. Then I got a new break cue to try out, My friend played a guy a 6 hour session(i was asleep) and he used the new break cue, the CB is covered in cracks now, after one session-and he isnt a monster breaker like Cory Harper, Mike Deschaine, Hillbilly. What it is is the new break cue-that phenolic is different than anything I ever broke the balls with, lord its hard. I noticed that first I broke the balls with it. I have had 4-5 people here with the same brand of braeak cue and never a ding, Mike Dedchaine has one exactly like the new one, if his tip was as hard as mine he would put a hole through the rock, he can hit them in the low-mid 30 mph. The batch of phenolic thats on the new break cue is much harder than any I have ever seen on my cues or others. I knew it wasnt all created equal. Donny Mills would dent up the CB with this break cue, ;) :)

Thats my field test results.
 
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