sorry to have to say this, but i think it's over

[ShootingArts]

I realize that

I realized what you are talking about. I had heard that Mark T was dealing with some folks that had to qualify too. I realize that the people he got a major bite out of, at least according to reports so far, were the players who have won decent dollars and have been paid.

I was replying to something on a tangent, why he played in a qualifier. I have to believe that if he bailed on his cash cows who were already in the IPT, he definitely wasn't paying expenses to anyone who still has to qualify. That led to my speculation that he already had the spot in the qualifier and no horse of his own to fill it. Purely guess work, no real facts to go on about much concerning the IPT.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dollars do show eventually along with an implausible explanation which the players will gladly accept in the hope the IPT lasts long enough for them to be the one that makes a decent score. All those that are already in can do is keep hoping but I think we are watching the IPT implode.

Hu

shootingarts, the contract we are talking about has nothing to do with trainor backing qualifiying players. Trainor solicited touring (and some qualified) entrants at vegas and reno. He signed contracts with many TOP players (such as souquet, manalo, etc) Each deal was different, and for a percentage (some as high as 50% to 20%) trainor would get his cut of the winnings, and agreed to pay a monthly stipend (which would be repaid anyway at the end ofthe year etc.) so, he stole their vegas money, and isn't paying the monthly stipend.

thats it in a very SMALL nutshell.


rg

 

[wayne]

You know, I keep seeing people write this with ZERO credit for what KT has already invested in the IPT and the players. Let's not forget that collectively he has already paid out far in excess of what other tournament promoters have done.

The IPT is playing it close to the vest with information. So what? There is not a business or orgaization to my knowledge that puts it operations on the table for all to see.

My friend who is waiting on a check has been able to get through to the IPT. She is waiting, apprehensively of course, but waiting and reserving judgement until she has further FACTUAL information.

Why can't we do the same?

IF, IF, IF the IPT is insolvent and has no way to pay the obligations that they incurred to the players then they are going to be guilty of fraud for holding qualifiers with no intention or ability to pay. Interstate fraud is a federal felony. So I am sure that there are plenty of people in the FTC and the FDA who would love to hand over a fraud case to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Until this very moment however we HAVE NOTHING to base these speculations on EXCEPT that the players have not been paid YET. Granted this is a distasteful and disgraceful slap in the face in light of Kevin and Deno's promises/statements. But it is not proof of insolvency and not proof of lies.

So until the IPT actually declares itsolvent or a court finds it unable to settle it's obligations I reserve judgement. If you want to play the speculation game then you could speculate that while Kevin Trudeau did say he was backing the IPT with his personal assets that perhaps he had to leverage those assets in another unforseen circumstance. The point being that we just don't know enough to make any statement of fact concerning the IPT other than the facts we know.

A. The IPT has staged four high class events.
B. The participants were all paid for the first two by all reports.
C. Most of the participants have been paid in the third one by all reports.
D. No one ha been paid for the last one by all accounts.
E. The total monies received so far by the collected assembly of pool players is more than all the other tournaments in 2007 combined. (I am guessing on this one because I haven't added it up but I bet it's not far off)
F. No one knows how the IPT is structured financially and so no one knows what the current state of solvency is nor what the state of investment is.
G. The IPT is mystery.
H. None of us know the address of the offices or even how/if the IPT is even a registered entity.

Those are the facts as I see them. Obviously there has been a ton of speculation and guessing surrounding every move the IPT makes. Just please, please get off the Kevin is Evil kick. If he is then at least he provided a platform for a bunch of players to make good coin this past year. Even if it's not all paid out they still got some good dough out of it. Perhaps they did intend for the qualifiers to be more well attended. I don't know. If Deno advised KT on that one then he seriously missed the mark with the $1000/1500/2000 entry fees.

Hopefully they are reassesing the past year ad the strategies and the coming year will see a stronger and more stable IPT.

Kevin Trudeau isn't evil. George Bush, who has murdered more than 30,000 civilians, is evil. If we want to talk evil then let's put it in perspective.

John

FACTS, FACTS, FACTS, we can't handle the facts. We will make up our own facts. Please stop trying to be rational and sane.

 

[sjm]

Until this very moment however we HAVE NOTHING to base these speculations on EXCEPT that the players have not been paid YET. Granted this is a distasteful and disgraceful slap in the face in light of Kevin and Deno's promises/statements. But it is not proof of insolvency and not proof of lies.

So until the IPT actually declares itsolvent or a court finds it unable to settle it's obligations I reserve judgement.

I agree that there is no evidence of insolvency. Nonetheless, the IPT's failure to make payments to the players makes it quite likely that the IPT is, at least for the moment, undercapitalized. Of course, that could change in a hurry if KT opts to inject capital. Perhaps he will ...... nobody really knows.

Still, the IPT is a business, and to suggest that the rules of business cease to exist when the IPT is concerned is a mistake. When payments are overdue to creditors of any organization (and, yes, the players are, quite simply, creditors), it is an ominous sign for any business. When that organization makes little effort to smooth things over with such creditors, it is even more ominous. It's even worse when that business is a new business, as its image is compromised, which makes it less attractive to would-be business partners, investors, or buyers.

You can call it speculation, but the business experiences of most would suggest that it's more than that. Predicting rain when the sky gets very dark at noon may also be called speculation, but experience tells us to interpret the darkening of the sky in a certain way. And so it is with the IPT ---- our experience tells us that a certain outcome, though by no means certain, is likely.

Finally, most responbsible people plan around what is likely, not around what is certain.

 

[onepocketchump]

I agree that there is no evidence of insolvency. Nonetheless, the IPT's failure to make payments to the players makes it quite likely that the IPT is, at least for the moment, undercapitalized. Of course, that could change in a hurry if KT opts to inject capital. Perhaps he will ...... nobody really knows.

Still, the IPT is a business, and to suggest that the rules of business cease to exist when the IPT is concerned is a mistake. When payments are overdue to creditors of any organization (and, yes, the players are, quite simply, creditors), it is an ominous sign for any business. When that organization makes little effort to smooth things over with such creditors, it is even more ominous. It's even worse when that business is a new business, as its image is compromised, which makes it less attractive to would-be business partners, investors, or buyers.

You can call it speculation, but the business experiences of most would suggest that it's more than that. Predicting rain when the sky gets very dark at noon may also be called speculation, but experience tells us to interpret the darkening of the sky in a certain way. And so it is with the IPT ---- our experience tells us that a certain outcome, though by no means certain, is likely.

Finally, most responbsible people plan around what is likely, not around what is certain.

And then the clouds part and the sun shines and the picnic is saved. Of course I agree with you. And perhaps you agree with me that sensible speculation based on observation of events and experience is quite different than that which is based in moral superiority and telepathy. I.e. calling Kevin "evil" and then telling us what his dastardly plan "is/was" is not only non-productive, it also has no basis of proof.

The likely outcome of the IPT's payment issues to the players is that they will get paid - given the history of the IPT to date. Thus, using your example, the players showed and played the tournament having planned for the most likely outcome.

We have not heard one vendor come on here and tell us that they had issues with payment. Nor have we heard it through the grapevine. Hell, for all we "know" the "Kevin is Evil" crowd might be right and Kevin is simply withholding the checks to make them sweat a little more. The point being as always that we can speculate until the cows come home to borrow from my little CPA friend, but we can't count them until they do.

John

 

[sjm]

And then the clouds part and the sun shines and the picnic is saved. Of course I agree with you. And perhaps you agree with me that sensible speculation based on observation of events and experience is quite different than that which is based in moral superiority and telepathy. I.e. calling Kevin "evil" and then telling us what his dastardly plan "is/was" is not only non-productive, it also has no basis of proof.

The likely outcome of the IPT's payment issues to the players is that they will get paid - given the history of the IPT to date. Thus, using your example, the players showed and played the tournament having planned for the most likely outcome.

We have not heard one vendor come on here and tell us that they had issues with payment. Nor have we heard it through the grapevine. Hell, for all we "know" the "Kevin is Evil" crowd might be right and Kevin is simply withholding the checks to make them sweat a little more. The point being as always that we can speculate until the cows come home to borrow from my little CPA friend, but we can't count them until they do.

John

Tap, tap, tap. Well said, John.

 

[sixpack]

And then the clouds part and the sun shines and the picnic is saved. Of course I agree with you. And perhaps you agree with me that sensible speculation based on observation of events and experience is quite different than that which is based in moral superiority and telepathy. I.e. calling Kevin "evil" and then telling us what his dastardly plan "is/was" is not only non-productive, it also has no basis of proof.

The likely outcome of the IPT's payment issues to the players is that they will get paid - given the history of the IPT to date. Thus, using your example, the players showed and played the tournament having planned for the most likely outcome.

We have not heard one vendor come on here and tell us that they had issues with payment. Nor have we heard it through the grapevine. Hell, for all we "know" the "Kevin is Evil" crowd might be right and Kevin is simply withholding the checks to make them sweat a little more. The point being as always that we can speculate until the cows come home to borrow from my little CPA friend, but we can't count them until they do.

John

IF KT is selling, then they are doing an appraisal/audit to see what the IPT is worth. IF they are doing that, then having the prize money in the bank could significantly affect the value of the company.

I don't know if this is what is going on, but I know that as a consultant, I've had clients withhold checks to me because they wanted their cash position to be stronger for an audit. It would make sense to me.

Cheers,
RC

 

[jimmyg]

IF KT is selling, then they are doing an appraisal/audit to see what the IPT is worth. IF they are doing that, then having the prize money in the bank could significantly affect the value of the company.

I don't know if this is what is going on, but I know that as a consultant, I've had clients withhold checks to me because they wanted their cash position to be stronger for an audit. It would make sense to me.

Cheers,
RC

Do you think that the IPT is worth more now or was it worth more before all of this non- payment fiasco began?

That is almost a rhetorical question because no one in their right mind would create all of the bad PR and discredit the business he is about to sell for a huge profit. Doubt that it will or was ever going to happen.

 

[sixpack]

Do you think that the IPT is worth more now or was it worth more before all of this non- payment fiasco began?

That is almost a rhetorical question because no one in their right mind would create all of the bad PR and discredit the business he is about to sell for a huge profit. Doubt that it will or was ever going to happen.

Hard to say. I think if they are doing an audit, then having the cash $$ in the bank and a debt on the books would make them look better than no cash and no debt. Not really an expert on this, but I have had clients withhold payment from me because they were doing a stock market audit of some kind and they wanted to be able to show the cash.

The bad PR is a real problem I would think, but I don't know what is going on behind closed doors. Any way you look at it, it doesn't look good right now.

I'm still holding out hope that players get paid, but the IPT certainly isn't doing anything to warrant any optimism right now.

Cheers,
RC

 

[Gabber]

You know, I keep seeing people write this with ZERO credit for what KT has already invested in the IPT and the players. Let's not forget that collectively he has already paid out far in excess of what other tournament promoters have done.

The IPT is playing it close to the vest with information. So what? There is not a business or orgaization to my knowledge that puts it operations on the table for all to see.

My friend who is waiting on a check has been able to get through to the IPT. She is waiting, apprehensively of course, but waiting and reserving judgement until she has further FACTUAL information.

Why can't we do the same?

IF, IF, IF the IPT is insolvent and has no way to pay the obligations that they incurred to the players then they are going to be guilty of fraud for holding qualifiers with no intention or ability to pay. Interstate fraud is a federal felony. So I am sure that there are plenty of people in the FTC and the FDA who would love to hand over a fraud case to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Until this very moment however we HAVE NOTHING to base these speculations on EXCEPT that the players have not been paid YET. Granted this is a distasteful and disgraceful slap in the face in light of Kevin and Deno's promises/statements. But it is not proof of insolvency and not proof of lies.

So until the IPT actually declares itsolvent or a court finds it unable to settle it's obligations I reserve judgement. If you want to play the speculation game then you could speculate that while Kevin Trudeau did say he was backing the IPT with his personal assets that perhaps he had to leverage those assets in another unforseen circumstance. The point being that we just don't know enough to make any statement of fact concerning the IPT other than the facts we know.

A. The IPT has staged four high class events.
B. The participants were all paid for the first two by all reports.
C. Most of the participants have been paid in the third one by all reports.
D. No one ha been paid for the last one by all accounts.
E. The total monies received so far by the collected assembly of pool players is more than all the other tournaments in 2007 combined. (I am guessing on this one because I haven't added it up but I bet it's not far off)
F. No one knows how the IPT is structured financially and so no one knows what the current state of solvency is nor what the state of investment is.
G. The IPT is mystery.
H. None of us know the address of the offices or even how/if the IPT is even a registered entity.

Those are the facts as I see them. Obviously there has been a ton of speculation and guessing surrounding every move the IPT makes. Just please, please get off the Kevin is Evil kick. If he is then at least he provided a platform for a bunch of players to make good coin this past year. Even if it's not all paid out they still got some good dough out of it. Perhaps they did intend for the qualifiers to be more well attended. I don't know. If Deno advised KT on that one then he seriously missed the mark with the $1000/1500/2000 entry fees.

Hopefully they are reassesing the past year ad the strategies and the coming year will see a stronger and more stable IPT.

Kevin Trudeau isn't evil. George Bush, who has murdered more than 30,000 civilians, is evil. If we want to talk evil then let's put it in perspective.

John

Didn't KT say that he was committed to 2 years no matter what?
Didn't he say that the prize money was guaranteed by an International accounting firm ?
If this is true, the players should have no worries about getting paid.

I predict a revamped IPT/APT to offer even more prize money.

Gabber

 

[memikey]

IF KT is selling, then they are doing an appraisal/audit to see what the IPT is worth. IF they are doing that, then having the prize money in the bank could significantly affect the value of the company....

Unless the auditor and the potential buyer are both imbeciles that is surely a fundamentally absurd notion.

Forget IPT for the moment.You seem to be saying for example that a company with 2 million in cash in their current cheque account and a ledger showing that 3 million in cash is owed to staff in overdue salary payments would somehow be considered more financially stable or 'worth more' by an auditor and be more attractive to a buyer than a company with zero cash in its current account and zero outstanding overdue salary payments to their staff

It isn't

 

[sixpack]

Unless the auditor and the potential buyer are both imbeciles that is surely a fundamentally absurd notion.

Forget IPT for the moment.You seem to be saying for example that a company with 2 million in cash in their current cheque account and a ledger showing that 3 million in cash is owed to staff in overdue salary payments would somehow be considered more financially stable or 'worth more' by an auditor and be more attractive to a buyer than a company with zero cash in its current account and zero outstanding overdue salary payments to their staff

It isn't

It's not salary. It's prize money. There is a difference.

Sometimes companies do all kinds of things to try and make themselves look better. If they can show the cash, it always looks better.

Let me give you a specific example. I was working for a company as a consultant...i.e. vendor.

They were a public company. Public companies look good if they can show 1) assets and 2) profits.

They delayed my (and other vendor) payments 6 weeks because they were preparing their quarterly report. With the cash in the bank, they felt that their company looked better on paper and would command a higher stock price.

You are absolutely correct, that if all the facts are known then the investor/auditor would have to be an imbecile to think that a company which owes money is financially superior to a company which has already paid. HOWEVER - once you get the corporate accountants involved...and you have a non-traditional relationship with the payees, then it's possible that the company will look better with the cash in the bank. Depending on how you classify/report the money that's owed. As I've said already, they players are not employees, they are not vendors, they are possibly independent contractors, but I even doubt that. I think their legal position WRT the IPT is suspect and I think that is their greatest vulnerability.

Has anyone heard of any vendors that haven't been paid? Venues? Employees? I haven't. It's possible that the debt to the players is classified in a completely different way from normal A/P and so it might be less obvious on an audit.

Anyway, I could be completely whacked, but I just thought I'd offer an alternative view.

Cheers,
RC

 

[onepocketchump]

Do you think that the IPT is worth more now or was it worth more before all of this non- payment fiasco began?

That is almost a rhetorical question because no one in their right mind would create all of the bad PR and discredit the business he is about to sell for a huge profit. Doubt that it will or was ever going to happen.

You can't have it both ways. If the mainstream public and corporate America could care less about "professional" pool and pool is beneath notice by these two partners in commerce then they don't care or are even aware of any bad "pr" by the IPT.

It's not like if the PGA didn't pay their players. THAT would be bad publicity and international news. The IPT??? Who are they and who cares anyway. 3 million doesn't even get you a mention in the classifieds these days. IF it were ever reported in any major newspaper the story would dissapear from the public eye in about two seconds and public opinon would be along the lines of "so what?".

If we are going to guess then I vote for the restructuring/recapitalizing pitching to the investor scenario. I think KT has put too much in to quit now.

John

 

[jjinfla]

Kevin Trudeau isn't evil. George Bush, who has murdered more than 30,000 civilians, is evil. If we want to talk evil then let's put it in perspective.

John

John,

You had me sorta on your side until you just had to put in that last sentence.

With that one sentence you lost all credibility.

A good attorney/salesman knows when to shut up.


Jake

 

[sjm]

for anyone to be arguing about how much good the ipt has done in the past, and is obviously overlooking the present, is ver, very foolish in my opinion. The "what have you done for me lately" phrase certainly applies in this case, because as much as kt has done, he will also be responsible for the biggest ripoff in the history of the sport if reno remains unpaid.

I agree 100%. If Reno goes unpaid and KT walks after having created the impression that he was financially committed to funding this tour for a minimum of two years, no end of players will have been burned, and not just those stiffed on the Reno event, but also those that have spent money trying to qualify, steered into that foolish investment by KT's misrepresentation of his intent to fund the tour.

I am trying hard to cling to the hope that this will be turned around and that the IPT will endure, because so many good people, including players, fans, and pool industry people, would be well served by the continuation of a tour that has, in my opinion, brought us the greatest fields in the history of this sport.

 

[jjinfla]

None of this would have happened if someone would have told us of KT's background when he first wanted to start this tour.

 

[jjinfla]

Oh wait. Someone did mention a few facts about KT.

Something like being a crook, going to jail, being a con man, etc, etc, etc.

I guess the lure of all that money and what they were going to do with it when they got it clouded their judgement and they all followed along reaching for the gold.

Oh well, we all have to admit, it was a well orchestrated con. At least I think it is a con. That's what makes it so great, no one knows if they have been conned yet. It will go down in history along with The Sting and other pool greats like Mackey.

Eh, what the hell, it is about time some of these hustlers got a taste of their own medicine.

Jake

 

[Jimk]

You know, I keep seeing people write this with ZERO credit for what KT has already invested in the IPT and the players. Let's not forget that collectively he has already paid out far in excess of what other tournament promoters have done.

The IPT is playing it close to the vest with information. So what? There is not a business or orgaization to my knowledge that puts it operations on the table for all to see.

My friend who is waiting on a check has been able to get through to the IPT. She is waiting, apprehensively of course, but waiting and reserving judgement until she has further FACTUAL information.

Why can't we do the same?

IF, IF, IF the IPT is insolvent and has no way to pay the obligations that they incurred to the players then they are going to be guilty of fraud for holding qualifiers with no intention or ability to pay. Interstate fraud is a federal felony. So I am sure that there are plenty of people in the FTC and the FDA who would love to hand over a fraud case to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Until this very moment however we HAVE NOTHING to base these speculations on EXCEPT that the players have not been paid YET. Granted this is a distasteful and disgraceful slap in the face in light of Kevin and Deno's promises/statements. But it is not proof of insolvency and not proof of lies.

So until the IPT actually declares itsolvent or a court finds it unable to settle it's obligations I reserve judgement. If you want to play the speculation game then you could speculate that while Kevin Trudeau did say he was backing the IPT with his personal assets that perhaps he had to leverage those assets in another unforseen circumstance. The point being that we just don't know enough to make any statement of fact concerning the IPT other than the facts we know.

A. The IPT has staged four high class events.
B. The participants were all paid for the first two by all reports.
C. Most of the participants have been paid in the third one by all reports.
D. No one ha been paid for the last one by all accounts.
E. The total monies received so far by the collected assembly of pool players is more than all the other tournaments in 2007 combined. (I am guessing on this one because I haven't added it up but I bet it's not far off)
F. No one knows how the IPT is structured financially and so no one knows what the current state of solvency is nor what the state of investment is.
G. The IPT is mystery.
H. None of us know the address of the offices or even how/if the IPT is even a registered entity.

Those are the facts as I see them. Obviously there has been a ton of speculation and guessing surrounding every move the IPT makes. Just please, please get off the Kevin is Evil kick. If he is then at least he provided a platform for a bunch of players to make good coin this past year. Even if it's not all paid out they still got some good dough out of it. Perhaps they did intend for the qualifiers to be more well attended. I don't know. If Deno advised KT on that one then he seriously missed the mark with the $1000/1500/2000 entry fees.

Hopefully they are reassesing the past year ad the strategies and the coming year will see a stronger and more stable IPT.

Kevin Trudeau isn't evil. George Bush, who has murdered more than 30,000 civilians, is evil. If we want to talk evil then let's put it in perspective.

John

It doesn't take a genius to assess the character of Kevin Trudeau. Have you watched any of his infomercials? Have you listened to any of his statements at the IPT website? Was he sent to prison for civil disobedience? I WANT to see the IPT make it. I hope it makes it in spite of KT.

 

[SlimShafty]

I got an autograph from a very famous guy on a plane flight a few years back and he said this:

Predictions are risky, especially when they're about the future.

And I will never forget it, a real nice guy too. With that being said, I can't say it's over because it's not over, and I'll bet the players get paid when they get the checks cashed.

.

 

[DaveK]

Oh wait. Someone did mention a few facts about KT.

Something like being a crook, going to jail, being a con man, etc, etc, etc.

I guess the lure of all that money and what they were going to do with it when they got it clouded their judgement and they all followed along reaching for the gold.

Oh well, we all have to admit, it was a well orchestrated con. At least I think it is a con. That's what makes it so great, no one knows if they have been conned yet. It will go down in history along with The Sting and other pool greats like Mackey.

Eh, what the hell, it is about time some of these hustlers got a taste of their own medicine.

Jake

You've certainly got that new tune down pat Jake.

Dave

 

[sixpack]

You've certainly got that new tune down pat Jake.

Dave

I have a lot more respect for someone who has an open mind and is willing to reassess his opinions once new information comes to light than people who, once their mind is made up, nothing can ever change it.

Kudos to JJ for being intellectually honest throughout this whole thing.

Cheers,
RC