sorry to have to say this, but i think it's over

[NYC cue dude]

Last week, i posted that, regardless of whether the players were paid for reno AND chicago, the REAL litmus test for me would come AFTER january if mark trainor continued payin his contracted players. If he had any inside info, i figured we would know if he either continued/stopped paying players.

Of course i do believe he does have informationabout the solvencyof the ipt, and he wouldn't have been able to go ahead with HIS SCAM without kt approval. I know for a fact that kt knows about trainor because i questioned him about it last may.


The word out on the street know is that trainor is NOT paying his monthly stipends to the players. I figured he had agreed to pay his stable of players around 70k PER MONTH, and would not continue to do so as soon as he got wind that the ipt was failing/failed.

we all know about Sigel's connection to kt. Sigel spent years on the road with trainor. Can we assume that sigel would let trainor twist in the wind? That is assuming that trainor doesn't have kt's ear personally.

As far as i am concerned, it's over. Even if the players are paid very soon, i think the damage know is beyond repair. The players, if they are smart, would show up in chaicago, have a meeting with an attorney, BEFORE kt's player meeting, and DEMAND that the prize money be ttransferred inot escrow. KT would be forced to negotiate on the spot, considering that the event would be about to begin. An escrow account can be established in a matter of hours, and a wire transfer takes minutes. Even if the event (which always starts on a business day) was delayed a day, the players would be foolish to begin play until the money was REALLY guaranteed. This is already assuming that reno gets paid, if not, i expect the ipt section of this forum to be gone as quickly as it was formed.

I am no longer hopeful.

rg

 

[jjinfla]

If it's over - it's over.

What makes you think there will even be a Chicago?

Ever the eternal optimist?

But then, it only has been 19 days. Give them time.

Jake

 

[onepocketchump]

If the IPT dies then this section should live on. It should be renamed to "required reading for promoters" or "How not to alienate the hard core fan base".

John

 

[Nostroke]

Last week, i posted that, regardless of whether the players were paid for reno AND chicago, the REAL litmus test for me would come AFTER january if mark trainor continued payin his contracted players. If he had any inside info, i figured we would know if he either continued/stopped paying players.

Of course i do believe he does have informationabout the solvencyof the ipt, and he wouldn't have been able to go ahead with HIS SCAM without kt approval. I know for a fact that kt knows about trainor because i questioned him about it last may.


The word out on the street know is that trainor is NOT paying his monthly stipends to the players. I figured he had agreed to pay his stable of players around 70k PER MONTH, and would not continue to do so as soon as he got wind that the ipt was failing/failed.

we all know about Sigel's connection to kt. Sigel spent years on the road with trainor. Can we assume that sigel would let trainor twist in the wind? That is assuming that trainor doesn't have kt's ear personally.

As far as i am concerned, it's over. Even if the players are paid very soon, i think the damage know is beyond repair. The players, if they are smart, would show up in chaicago, have a meeting with an attorney, BEFORE kt's player meeting, and DEMAND that the prize money be ttransferred inot escrow. KT would be forced to negotiate on the spot, considering that the event would be about to begin. An escrow account can be established in a matter of hours, and a wire transfer takes minutes. Even if the event (which always starts on a business day) was delayed a day, the players would be foolish to begin play until the money was REALLY guaranteed. This is already assuming that reno gets paid, if not, i expect the ipt section of this forum to be gone as quickly as it was formed.

I am no longer hopeful.

rg

I only disagree with one thing- If the Players are paid now or anytime before the next tourney, it is not over-All the players will be back. Right now it seems like torture to them but once that check comes and clears (a big If) they will be all smiles and this delay will just be a distant memory. What is the alternative? Money talks, even late money.

A REAL players organization is needed but I doubt that will happen either.

Your whole Trainor angle seems hugely logical.

The Players here at the Open are almost unanimous in spouting. " I think we will get our money but man are they handling this wrong."

That worries me too.

 

[mnShooter]

Why would trainer pay $2000 for a qualifier if he thinks the tour is going down the drain? Maybe he does have the inside info. Or maybe he got a free entry from KT.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Man, I hope it's not over. I'm sitting on a cache of nearly 200 bags of Pop Weaver Extra Butter popcorn.....
I load up and the bottom falls out.

Doug
(please speak more slowly and I may get through this........ I'm glad I didn't buy any BEER)

 

[ironman]

Last week, i posted that, regardless of whether the players were paid for reno AND chicago, the REAL litmus test for me would come AFTER january if mark trainor continued payin his contracted players. If he had any inside info, i figured we would know if he either continued/stopped paying players.

Of course i do believe he does have informationabout the solvencyof the ipt, and he wouldn't have been able to go ahead with HIS SCAM without kt approval. I know for a fact that kt knows about trainor because i questioned him about it last may.


The word out on the street know is that trainor is NOT paying his monthly stipends to the players. I figured he had agreed to pay his stable of players around 70k PER MONTH, and would not continue to do so as soon as he got wind that the ipt was failing/failed.

we all know about Sigel's connection to kt. Sigel spent years on the road with trainor. Can we assume that sigel would let trainor twist in the wind? That is assuming that trainor doesn't have kt's ear personally.

As far as i am concerned, it's over. Even if the players are paid very soon, i think the damage know is beyond repair. The players, if they are smart, would show up in chaicago, have a meeting with an attorney, BEFORE kt's player meeting, and DEMAND that the prize money be ttransferred inot escrow. KT would be forced to negotiate on the spot, considering that the event would be about to begin. An escrow account can be established in a matter of hours, and a wire transfer takes minutes. Even if the event (which always starts on a business day) was delayed a day, the players would be foolish to begin play until the money was REALLY guaranteed. This is already assuming that reno gets paid, if not, i expect the ipt section of this forum to be gone as quickly as it was formed.

I am no longer hopeful.

rg

It is almost impossible to have hope when there is no communication from the responsible parties.

As I agree with what you say, I will be the sucker a bit longer in hopes that the players, firstly and foremost get PAID WHAT THEY ARE OWED. Secondly, I hope the IPT is sold to someone more responsible. I hope it is someone with a business plan in mind and someone who will stick with it. Lastly, when and if this fails and hangs it's closed sign, I fear it will deal many wounded hearts a broken heart.

I was very curious as to why Trainer was playing in the qualifier in Vegas last weekend, if there was to be no Chicago. I wonder if he even had to pay an entry or if he was just a write-in. I wouldn't put anything past anyone at this point. As you point out, if he has confidence that all is well, people will be paid, and there will be a Chicago, why discontinue the stipend.

I'll repeat, there will be one more STORY issued and it is going to be a whopper.

I guess in short, I share your feelings and I surely hope we are both DEAD WRONG. For the sake of the players. But, then again, they shoot horses.

 

[jay helfert]

I only disagree with one thing- If the Players are paid now or anytime before the next tourney, it is not over-All the players will be back. Right now it seems like torture to them but once that check comes and clears (a big If) they will be all smiles and this delay will just be a distant memory. What is the alternative? Money talks, even late money.

A REAL players organization is needed but I doubt that will happen either.

Your whole Trainor angle seems hugely logical.

The Players here at the Open are almost unanimous in spouting. " I think we will get our money but man are they handling this wrong."

That worries me too.

I tend to agree with you. The true test is whether they can meet this $3,000,000 payroll. That is a healthy piece of change even for a "billionaire".

The way I look at it is this. If they don't pay, it's a civil matter; maybe a class action lawsuit by someone representing all the players. If they write any checks that bounce, that is criminal. I'm sure KT is keeping himself personally well insulated from any claims against his corporation.

Hey, that's the American way.

 

[supergreenman]

I tend to agree with you. The true test is whether they can meet this $3,000,000 payroll. That is a healthy piece of change even for a "billionaire".

The way I look at it is this. If they don't pay, it's a civil matter; maybe a class action lawsuit by someone representing all the players. If they write any checks that bounce, that is criminal. I'm sure KT is keeping himself personally well insulated from any claims against his corporation.

Hey, that's the American way.

If that's the case, Mr. KT should be looking at the top execs at Enron and world com. No matter how well insulated he is if there's some sort of fraud involved, he could be looking at a criminal trial.

 

[ironman]

I only disagree with one thing- If the Players are paid now or anytime before the next tourney, it is not over-All the players will be back. Right now it seems like torture to them but once that check comes and clears (a big If) they will be all smiles and this delay will just be a distant memory. What is the alternative? Money talks, even late money.

A REAL players organization is needed but I doubt that will happen either.

Your whole Trainor angle seems hugely logical.

The Players here at the Open are almost unanimous in spouting. " I think we will get our money but man are they handling this wrong."

That worries me too.

Sadly, you are exactly right. All will be forgiven until next time.

 

[sjm]

Certainly, NYC Cue Dude's argument is logical, but.......

Whether Trainer has inside info or not, he'd likely conclude that the IPT is undercapitalized and in very deep financial waters, using the reasoning the so many on the forum have used.

Trainer surely realizes, as do most of us here on AZB, that the IPT's failure to make any statement about moneys due the players, is at best, an indication that they are deciding whether to further captialize this venture, and, at worst, irrefutable evidence that they have no intention of doing so. Either way, he'd surely cut off payments to those in his stable pending the outcome of this debacle.

Hence, I don't think we can derive much meaning from Trainer's actions. The party may well be over, but I'm not convinced that Trainer, through his actions, has offered any further evidence of what will likely transpire in the near future.

 

[jjinfla]

So why are the brackets for the qualifiers still up and current and being updated?

Did KT, Deno or MIke show up at any qualifier?

This really is confusing.

You couldn't write a play like this. No one would believe it.

Maybe the membership club will survive. That would be easy money.

Jake

 

[NYC cue dude]

sjm, i couldn't disagree with your logic more.

Trainor entered into a qualifier last week and at the time i thought it was suspicious. Now he says the ipt is "non performing". Why did he enter a qualifier? Why won't he pay his players? He had no trouble taking a HUGE amount of money last monthfrom some 15 players. Some cuts were as much as 50%. Sounds pretty clear to me, he had no trouble taking the money (after only a few days after signing players). Now he doesn't feel the need to continue his stipend because reno went unpaid?

I KNOW (not speculation) that trainor is very closewith sigel. WHo here thinks mike doesn't know what is going on. It was even reported that all three (kt, mt, and ms) were dining in vegas together. Trainor knows whats going on.

As i have said in the past, when trainor stops paying his players, which i din;t believe would happen until january, then the writing is on thewall. I was initially interested to see how trainor would react regarding payments, to the postponed 2007 season. Would he continue to pay for 6 months with no events? Now we see him skipping his 2nd payment (october). Did he even pay his stable for september, or did he just grab the vegas money and give NOTHING in return?

F@ck them!!!!!

 

[ShootingArts]

wonder if he had already bought the spot?

Mark T playing in the qualifier seems odd but one thing I have wondered is if he had already bought the spot and then decided not to pay expenses for whomever he planned to back in the qualifier. No idea if this is true but seems like a possible speculation. Or no more unlikely than anything else about the IPT scenario.

Hu

sjm, i couldn't disagree with your logic more.

Trainor entered into a qualifier last week and at the time i thought it was suspicious. Now he says the ipt is "non performing". Why did he enter a qualifier? Why won't he pay his players? He had no trouble taking a HUGE amount of money last monthfrom some 15 players. Some cuts were as much as 50%. Sounds pretty clear to me, he had no trouble taking the money (after only a few days after signing players). Now he doesn't feel the need to continue his stipend because reno went unpaid?

I KNOW (not speculation) that trainor is very closewith sigel. WHo here thinks mike doesn't know what is going on. It was even reported that all three (kt, mt, and ms) were dining in vegas together. Trainor knows whats going on.

As i have said in the past, when trainor stops paying his players, which i din;t believe would happen until january, then the writing is on thewall. I was initially interested to see how trainor would react regarding payments, to the postponed 2007 season. Would he continue to pay for 6 months with no events? Now we see him skipping his 2nd payment (october). Did he even pay his stable for september, or did he just grab the vegas money and give NOTHING in return?

F@ck them!!!!!

 

[sjm]

sjm, i couldn't disagree with your logic more.

Trainor entered into a qualifier last week and at the time i thought it was suspicious. Now he says the ipt is "non performing". Why did he enter a qualifier? Why won't he pay his players? He had no trouble taking a HUGE amount of money last monthfrom some 15 players. Some cuts were as much as 50%. Sounds pretty clear to me, he had no trouble taking the money (after only a few days after signing players). Now he doesn't feel the need to continue his stipend because reno went unpaid?

I KNOW (not speculation) that trainor is very closewith sigel. WHo here thinks mike doesn't know what is going on. It was even reported that all three (kt, mt, and ms) were dining in vegas together. Trainor knows whats going on.

As i have said in the past, when trainor stops paying his players, which i din;t believe would happen until january, then the writing is on thewall. I was initially interested to see how trainor would react regarding payments, to the postponed 2007 season. Would he continue to pay for 6 months with no events? Now we see him skipping his 2nd payment (october). Did he even pay his stable for september, or did he just grab the vegas money and give NOTHING in return?

F@ck them!!!!!

Perhaps your right, my friend. All I've suggested is that however much Trainer did or didn't know, the situation would probably have led him to the same actions. I agree with you that he probably knows all the details, and yes, it does look awfully shady. Anyway, thanks for your insights.

Hope you're well. I haven't been shooting much over the past month, so our paths haven't crossed of late.

 

[ironman]

Mark T playing in the qualifier seems odd but one thing I have wondered is if he had already bought the spot and then decided not to pay expenses for whomever he planned to back in the qualifier. No idea if this is true but seems like a possible speculation. Or no more unlikely than anything else about the IPT scenario.

Hu

What happened to Teddy Garahan also?

 

[NYC cue dude]

sjm, sadly, by my calculations, trainor took in about 160 thousand dollars from vegas. In the two months since then, not only has he not done ANYTHING of financial value for the players, he has decided that he will excersise an escape clause to avoid paying players their monthly stipend. I wonder if that is by implied action, a reason to annul should the ipt decide to pay for reno? Can it be considered FRAUD?

True, I don't know all the answers, but even though i was born in the morning, i wasn't born yesterday morning.....

BTW, I haven't been around myself since toasti left for reno. I have been fishing for the last few weeks in minnesota. I'll probably be back to nyc sometime before the first snowfall. Be well.


rg

 

[NYC cue dude]

shootingarts, the contract we are talking about has nothing to do with trainor backing qualifiying players. Trainor solicited touring (and some qualified) entrants at vegas and reno. He signed contracts with many TOP players (such as souquet, manalo, etc) Each deal was different, and for a percentage (some as high as 50% to 20%) trainor would get his cut of the winnings, and agreed to pay a monthly stipend (which would be repaid anyway at the end ofthe year etc.) so, he stole their vegas money, and isn't paying the monthly stipend.

thats it in a very SMALL nutshell.


rg

 

[Jimk]

So many questions. So few real answers. I think most of the people on this forum think the worst and are probably right. The next few days and weeks will be very interesting. All professional players, and I don't think there are that many of them, need to keep their feelers up and their eyes open. KT is a snake in the grass.

 

[onepocketchump]

KT is a snake in the grass.

You know, I keep seeing people write this with ZERO credit for what KT has already invested in the IPT and the players. Let's not forget that collectively he has already paid out far in excess of what other tournament promoters have done.

The IPT is playing it close to the vest with information. So what? There is not a business or orgaization to my knowledge that puts it operations on the table for all to see.

My friend who is waiting on a check has been able to get through to the IPT. She is waiting, apprehensively of course, but waiting and reserving judgement until she has further FACTUAL information.

Why can't we do the same?

IF, IF, IF the IPT is insolvent and has no way to pay the obligations that they incurred to the players then they are going to be guilty of fraud for holding qualifiers with no intention or ability to pay. Interstate fraud is a federal felony. So I am sure that there are plenty of people in the FTC and the FDA who would love to hand over a fraud case to the Justice Department for prosecution.

Until this very moment however we HAVE NOTHING to base these speculations on EXCEPT that the players have not been paid YET. Granted this is a distasteful and disgraceful slap in the face in light of Kevin and Deno's promises/statements. But it is not proof of insolvency and not proof of lies.

So until the IPT actually declares itsolvent or a court finds it unable to settle it's obligations I reserve judgement. If you want to play the speculation game then you could speculate that while Kevin Trudeau did say he was backing the IPT with his personal assets that perhaps he had to leverage those assets in another unforseen circumstance. The point being that we just don't know enough to make any statement of fact concerning the IPT other than the facts we know.

A. The IPT has staged four high class events.
B. The participants were all paid for the first two by all reports.
C. Most of the participants have been paid in the third one by all reports.
D. No one ha been paid for the last one by all accounts.
E. The total monies received so far by the collected assembly of pool players is more than all the other tournaments in 2007 combined. (I am guessing on this one because I haven't added it up but I bet it's not far off)
F. No one knows how the IPT is structured financially and so no one knows what the current state of solvency is nor what the state of investment is.
G. The IPT is mystery.
H. None of us know the address of the offices or even how/if the IPT is even a registered entity.

Those are the facts as I see them. Obviously there has been a ton of speculation and guessing surrounding every move the IPT makes. Just please, please get off the Kevin is Evil kick. If he is then at least he provided a platform for a bunch of players to make good coin this past year. Even if it's not all paid out they still got some good dough out of it. Perhaps they did intend for the qualifiers to be more well attended. I don't know. If Deno advised KT on that one then he seriously missed the mark with the $1000/1500/2000 entry fees.

Hopefully they are reassesing the past year ad the strategies and the coming year will see a stronger and more stable IPT.

Kevin Trudeau isn't evil. George Bush, who has murdered more than 30,000 civilians, is evil. If we want to talk evil then let's put it in perspective.

John