speed control . . . . . seems odd to me

I think one aspect of speed control not mentioned here yet is the thickness or thinness of the hit. Like I mentioned in the center ball hit thread, the contact area of an object ball can vary greatly. Many hangers are hit nonchalantly, affecting the speed.

I guess what works for me a lot is committing to one side or other of my next ball to get shape on the next one, etc. I try to evaluate worst-case-scenario of which side I really need to be on. If I come up short but on the correct side of the ball, will it still be ok? What about if I go too far, will I be SOL?

Not only weight of ball and cloth conditions, size of table, etc., but the english put on a ball, which goes back to my first thought...could make it hit fat or thin and stop the ball or increase the ball speed. So many variables, but I do try and commit to the exact position, and then lacking that, try to at least maintain position on the correct side.
 
In a lesson with Chris Lynch a while ago he said when he was learning the game, he would gage his speed control by the feet the ball has to travel. So before everyshot he would think in his head.... "ok, this is 16' speed."

I always thought this is a great way to look at it.

Like on this shot, the cue ball has to travel about 10.5' and hit about 3/4 of the ojbect ball. So after hitting the object ball, the cueball will only have 1/4 of its speed, so you would hit the cue ball at 30' speed or about three table lengths speed.

CueTable Help



Ive still yet to master the above example but on a smaller scale, it helps me a lot. Like this shot, I know I only need to hit the cue ball at the same speed 4.5' or half a table, its a thin cut so very little of the cue ball energy will be lost so I slow roll the cue ball about 5 foot speed. Sometimes I even picture the table has no rail and it just keeps going and i try to stop the cue ball after 5'.

CueTable Help

 
Scott Lee said:
Pool lessons that don't include some method of achieving a repeatable stroke, and developing speed control, are, imo, of very limited value. I teach both of those things to every student I meet.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I agree. This was the 2nd item in the lineup when you gave me my lessons. It has really helped me in my game. Now I just need to get MORE lessons and MORE practice!! :)
 
"perception" of speed controle

I am not 100% sold on the speed controle.....

Although they have good controle...I think quite often top players appear to have superior speed controle because they are playing better patterns.

The better your patterns are...the better your speed controle will appear to be.

Other than that....speed controle is a very touchy subject...;)
 
rackmsuckr said:
I think one aspect of speed control not mentioned here yet is the thickness or thinness of the hit. Like I mentioned in the center ball hit thread, the contact area of an object ball can vary greatly. Many hangers are hit nonchalantly, affecting the speed.
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A very important point. Often if we have a full pocket to shoot at, and a full 2 inches or more of margin of error for the object ball to go in the hole, we get a little lackadaisical about the accuracy of the hit, and then wonder why we missed shape. On some shots, the exact same speed of stroke and amount of english will result in several feet more or less travel depending on whether the OB goes in the left side of the pocket or the right side. I think this makes speed control even harder for novices to improve, because even if they're doing the right thing as far as initial CB speed, inaccuracy of hit can make the final CB speed erratic.

-Andrew
 
SJDinPHX said:
Scott, I cannot believe you listed all those things as being taught "quite easily". If you can take a novice, or even a "B" player, and teach him those attributes "easily", You must be the greatest instuctor on the planet!
You are making some pretty solid player's sound like they don't have a clue about speed control. Please give me (us) some credit. JMHO.

Dick
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If you have not taken lessons from one of the BCA Instructors like Scott, you should give it a try. I was amazed at the simple lessons and drills that Scott was able to give me to help improve the way I approached a shot. Speed is very integral in the teaching they do.
 
I too have had a lesson with Scott and found the speed control drill of great value. It takes a very difficult subject and gives you solid control over it. Of course, you must practive the drill a lot to get the bedefits from it, then apply it to all the patterns that you run, but if you want great speed control, I can't see a better way to get there. It is not hard, just takes a lot of repetition to become repeatable.

I couldn't agree more that a repeatable stroke is a necessity to speed control. What drill will work if you can not hit the CB in the same spot for repetition. Cueing a half tip off will drastically change the response of the CB, so you will not be able to see your effectiveness while drilling if you aren't able to hit the spot you need to hit, which most people can not.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Jim, You make some good points, But I will still wager that, after a good instructor teaches proper stance, bridge, repetitive stroke, etc., their level of frustration goes up when they come to speed contol. I guess I'm trying to say, it has to be the hardest thing to "teach". ;)

Dick

PS Jim and Scott, I'm not talking about general area speed control, I'm talking about pinpoint accuracy. Teaching that is a real chore.
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Review my speed calibration drill. I routinely control my CB distance to within 1 ball diameter on either side of the "target line" up to the 4 speed and within 1/2 diamond up to the 6 speed.

As Scott and Poolteacher point out...speed control is EASY to TEACH but like anything of value...not easy to LEARN. You just have to practice.

I run my speed drill up to the 4 speed almost every time I practice.

Regards,

Jim
 
av84fun said:
As Scott and Poolteacher point out...speed control is EASY to TEACH but like anything of value...not easy to LEARN. You just have to practice.

Regards,

Jim
Click to expand...

Actually, it's not that difficult to learn. Our students learn it as quickly and easily as we teach it. The difficulty comes in consistent execution....that's where the practice comes in.

Most all of the concepts we teach in pool school are pretty simple. Beginners and experienced players often learn at the same place. Sometimes it takes the beginners a little longer to be able to execute...although sometimes the rookies who have no pre-conceived ideas of how it should be adapt more quickly that the advanced players. Each individual is different, but the desire to learn, and then APPLY the knowledge, is the key to making lessons worthwhile.

Steve
 
Been making chips

I've been making chips all day. Nice to see the thread rolling along when I get time to check it.

Some very good points made about cue ball roll after the hit and I like the idea of considering how hard I need to hit the cue ball after subtracting force lost hitting the object ball.

I think that people are getting a little tangled up in semantics now. In my opinion learning theory is not the same as learning to execute so I think both sides are correct in the speed of learning debates. Learning theory can come fast, being able to execute usually takes much longer although there are exceptions.

Speed control is something where if you can't execute consistently it means little. Speed control 80% of the time still leaves you hung out to dry almost every game.

Thanks for the posts everyone and I am still digging for more!
Hu
 
Dick...Thank you for the nice compliment! :D I don't know about being the best, but I am certainly ONE of the best...according to my peers, and my students! Perhaps the next time I'm in Phoenix, I'll meet with you, and show you just how easy speed control is...on any table!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SJDinPHX said:
If you can take a novice, or even a "B" player, and teach him those attributes "easily", You must be the greatest instuctor on the planet!

Dick
Click to expand...
 
ShootingArts said:
Thanks to all, this thread is what I hoped for. Hopefully more to come. I am talking about pinpoint control, not somewhere in the right neighborhood. When I gambled a lot I played the most brutal "accidental" safeties imaginable. These require better control of a cue ball than running out and even running out requires better control than I often have now.

Generally, I agree that we should approach the next shot so that the exact shape is least important but sometimes that isn't possible, usually because speed control issues put me on the wrong side of an earlier ball so my cue ball path is crossing the proper shape instead of at a much longer angle.

It is vital to get the speed of the table and cue ball down in a hurry. Jim's shots are one quick test, how about some less obvious ones? Three rails to test the banking angles gives some idea of speed and is so common that people don't think much about anyone doing it, what else doesn't draw much attention and is perhaps a better test of speed?

Any more suggested drills or practice techniques?

Hu
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Place OBs at the center diamond of both short rails...a half ball off the rail. Start at one end and set up a cut with the CB on the first long rail diamond string. Use a little top to get shape on the OB on the opposite end...attempting to leave yourself with a similar cut back up to the other end where you have replaced the OB you just shot.

If you used top to fall on a given side of the opposite OB, then use a little bottom coming back the other way.

The third shot in the series is to pocket the ball and carry the CB to the opposit short rail and then back out the the head/foot string.

The last shot is to carry the cb back out to center table.

The goal is to achieve 1/2 diamond accuracy tolerance.

If you nailed the shot speeds 1-4 in my first drill and the speeds in this longer shot drill, any jury in the world would rule that you have the table speed down.

(-:

Jim

Regards,
 
Scott Lee said:
Dick...Thank you for the nice compliment! :D I don't know about being the best, but I am certainly ONE of the best...according to my peers, and my students! Perhaps the next time I'm in Phoenix, I'll meet with you, and show you just how easy speed control is...on any table!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Mr. Lee,
I am not trying to discredit your skills as an instructor. My issue is with your claims on speed control. The next time you are in Phoenix, all you have to do is demonstrate your magic formula to my friends. (at all skill levels) They would even pay for a group lesson. I don't need a lesson as
I allready possess pinpoint speed control. Ask my peers. :wink:

Dick
 
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Sometimes I even picture the table has no rail and it just keeps going and i try to stop the cue ball after 5'.
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Hitting the rail reduces the CB's speed by about half, so you'll need to hit the CB harder than you would without the rail.

pj
chgo
 
Dick...I'd be happy to show your friends. Remember, as I and several students have pointed out, good speed control is dependant on already having a repeatable stroke. MOST people do not possess this. Consequently, they have to correct their stroke flaws, and practice the things that will give them this necessary skill. The speed control exercise (Mother Drill #5) is one of these.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SJDinPHX said:
The next time you are in Phoenix, all you have to do is demonstrate your magic formula to my friends. (at all skill levels) They would even pay for a group lesson.

Dick
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Dick...Thank you for the nice compliment! :D I don't know about being the best, but I am certainly ONE of the best...according to my peers, and my students! Perhaps the next time I'm in Phoenix, I'll meet with you, and show you just how easy speed control is...on any table!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I'm a student of Scott's and use and practice his speed control ideas. I sometimes speak to myself during set-up in his numberic terms: "This is a 4 speed," for example. Not always, but when a critical or difficult shot comes up, this allows me an easier way to execute.

The only problem, if I can call it that, is speeds below the 1 speed....and there are many times I use those slower speeds when playing barbox 8-ball. Scott's numbering sytems means those speeds are less than 1, so I sometimes hear myself saying, "This is a 1/2 speed" for example. I'd rather the numbers were more precise for verrrrry slowwwww speeds.

But practice and play tends to get me into the correct feel for whatever table I'm playing on.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
I'm a student of Scott's and use and practice his speed control ideas. I sometimes speak to myself during set-up in his numberic terms: "This is a 4 speed," for example. Not always, but when a critical or difficult shot comes up, this allows me an easier way to execute.

The only problem, if I can call it that, is speeds below the 1 speed....and there are many times I use those slower speeds when playing barbox 8-ball. Scott's numbering sytems means those speeds are less than 1, so I sometimes hear myself saying, "This is a 1/2 speed" for example. I'd rather the numbers were more precise for verrrrry slowwwww speeds.

But practice and play tends to get me into the correct feel for whatever table I'm playing on.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Don't know if you play 1 Pkt. or not, but should you decide to learn that game, you will find you will need to fractionalize your mental speed control much further. Can you say...1/32 speed, 3/8 speed, 1/64 speed, etc. :eek:

Regards,

Dick
 
Jeff...The next time I'm in Des Moines, I'd be happy to work with you, on developing what we call "finesse" speeds, which are all less than a 1-speed (aka lag speed). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

chefjeff said:
I'm a student of Scott's and use and practice his speed control ideas. I sometimes speak to myself during set-up in his numberic terms: "This is a 4 speed," for example. Not always, but when a critical or difficult shot comes up, this allows me an easier way to execute.

The only problem, if I can call it that, is speeds below the 1 speed....and there are many times I use those slower speeds when playing barbox 8-ball. Scott's numbering sytems means those speeds are less than 1, so I sometimes hear myself saying, "This is a 1/2 speed" for example. I'd rather the numbers were more precise for verrrrry slowwwww speeds.

But practice and play tends to get me into the correct feel for whatever table I'm playing on.

fwiw,

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Jeff...The next time I'm in Des Moines, I'd be happy to work with you, on developing what we call "finesse" speeds, which are all less than a 1-speed (aka lag speed). :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Well thanks, Scott. I'm successfully using the nice stroke you taught me to "crawl" the cue ball a short distance. I guess the point I was making in the post was about numbering the speeds below a one speed.

One of my teammates asked me when you're coming as he (finally!) wants a stroke lesson. He may not come through, but maybe..?

When you're gonna be coming down I-80, let me know and we'll see if we can't set up something.

Jeff Livingston
 
just my 2c on how i check tablespeed.

Ive been searching and training for 1 week to try and improve my lagshot.
I found out my "weird" but simpel way that gives me 80% accuracy (after the first week, and i'm sure i could get it to 90-95% if i had more time to play pool) on leaving the cb at max 1/2ball wide from the cussion. since ive learned it everyone looks weird at me, but i havent lost a lagshot in 3 months :D

I dont use muscles to stroke, i use gravity as gravity is constant (unless i use earl gloves full of weightbolts :D). I use a very standing up position, (because the distance between cue and shoulder should be the same EACH time (doing this bended is harder, just standing tall is easyer) i know exactly how far my bridge hand should be, so that if i pull the cue back untill the ferule touches my index,I just need to pauze and then just let gravity pul my arm down and so producing a stroke that will give a accurate lagshot.

When i'm on a new table, first thing i do is this lagshot. i keep the same bridgedistance, but move the cb in the kitchen untill it consistantly touches the rail with the lag. Depending on how much further or backwards the cb is compared to at home gives me a very accurate % on how much faster or slower it is. cb = 1/2diamond forward = 1/32" slower aka 3% slower. so i need to shoot every shot 3% harder.

the 20% where my cb is not in 1/2ball wide from the rail with the lag, is because i didnt let gravity make the stroke, and i use either of the 2 muscles to slow or fasten the stroke because of habit. (or very rarely because i didnt hit the cb where i wanted it (works best wit a tip of top, as to remove drag and slipping from center hit as much as possible).

i know ive been talking about the lagshot, but to me thats the shot that really can tell you how fast or slow a table plays, as its the most memorised speed in our muscle memory.
 
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