speed control . . . . . seems odd to me

ShootingArts said:
It is vital to get the speed of the table and cue ball down in a hurry. Jim's shots are one quick test, how about some less obvious ones? Three rails to test the banking angles gives some idea of speed and is so common that people don't think much about anyone doing it, what else doesn't draw much attention and is perhaps a better test of speed?

Any more suggested drills or practice techniques?

Hu
Click to expand...

I have a cueball only drill that isn't very difficult even for mid range players.. but I have found it to be very valuable in acclimating yourself to the speed and rails of any table rather quickly.


cueball on the head spot using varying english and speed shoot the cueball to the middle diamond on the foot rail.. and sink the cueball around the table in all 6 pockets.. strive for pocket speed you are looking to just barely roll off the slate and into the pocket on each shot..

once you have this drill dialed in on your home table shoot it once a day to keep it fresh. It doesn't take long and is a nice warm up..

when you play on a strange table shoot that drill before the match if you can. you will almost always miss the first shot on strange equipment but with 2 or 3 tries you can dial it in now you are acclimated to that tables speed and rails.
 
I give up !

cleary said:
a good resource

http://www.billiardworld.com/cntrlspd.html
Click to expand...

Cleary, thanks, but no thanks.

I don't think I can participate in this thread any longer without becoming insulting. I will not say a good instructor cannot teach basic pool skills to a beginner. After that the instructor becomes a "chiropractor", in that the newbie must keep going back for more lessons to continue his quest for the "Holy pool grail"
I don't know who this Jim Meador is but he talks (and writes ) like a frustrated mechanical engineer. I have known guys who have beautiful strokes, they've been playing for years. They can draw (or follow) their cue ball further than most instuctors I've seen. But they have NEVER mastered pinpoint speed control! It is the most elusive part of our great game. I know you guy's have to make a living too, and I hate to be a knocker, but I know, and I think you all do too, To say that speed control is "easily taught" is absolutely ludicrous! (Scott, try and take something out of context with this post.) ;)

Dick
 
Dick...Well, I'd say that's pretty insulting! Sorry you feel that way, but your saying it CAN'T be easily taught is at least as ludricrous! There are many hundreds of students (and a hundred or so SPF instructors) who will disagree with you. I know you're "old school", but if you have a closed mind, nothing new can possibly enter it. I've already offered to show you the process. If you can't accept that, without putting it down first, before even trying to understand it, then you're not somebody who is out to help and support the sport, like you claim to be.

Oh, and btw, Jim Meador was a very respected poolplayer, and contributed much good content to the pool forums. He passed away, so now you're insulting the dead too!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SJDinPHX said:
To say that speed control is "easily taught" is absolutely ludicrous! (Scott, try and take something out of context with this post.) ;)

Dick
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
SJDinPHX said:
To say that speed control is "easily taught" is absolutely ludicrous! (Scott, try and take something out of context with this post.) ;)

Dick
Click to expand...

I think you are missing his point. Speed control can be easily taught. I think any good instructor could teach most any student speed control in less than an hour. BUT, and this is a BIG ONE...Once the student has learned it, it might take months or even years to master it. That's the pinpoint accuracy you are talking about, and no, we can't teach that...that is something the student will develop on his own. We teach them how...they take it to whatever level they want to take it to.
Steve
 
I hate to see good folks banging heads ....

The simple truth is that you can't teach anyone a physical skill. You can teach them how to go about trying to perform it but then it is up to the student to actually master the skill.

I will say that I agree with Dick, very very few players at any level master pinpoint speed control. When you do it becomes a major weapon, perhaps the biggest weapon in your arsenal. As a gambler many years ago I was the luckiest guy on the face of the earth and only a very small handful of people ever realized that there wasn't any luck involved.

I think the first step for me in trying to regain speed control is to build a new stick and shaft that hits softly, what I shot with for years. I'm debating a milk dud or a plain elkmaster but I used lightly pressed milk duds in the past and probably will again. Then I am going to revert back to soft ferules and joints. It should be interesting at the least!

I will be pulling all the information I can from this thread and working with it too. I want to thank everyone once again too. I don't think anyone is wrong but it does seem that expressing ourselves in the written word can be difficult sometimes.

Pooltchr, you did an excellent job explaining things in your post!

Hu




pooltchr said:
I think you are missing his point. Speed control can be easily taught. I think any good instructor could teach most any student speed control in less than an hour. BUT, and this is a BIG ONE...Once the student has learned it, it might take months or even years to master it. That's the pinpoint accuracy you are talking about, and no, we can't teach that...that is something the student will develop on his own. We teach them how...they take it to whatever level they want to take it to.
Steve
Click to expand...
 
Now that I've thought about it, there's a guy in Seattle, a real student of the game, even though his profession is teaching. He theorized that with a duplicatable stroke, you could predict how far the cue ball would travel, by the length of your followthrough. Conversely, if you wanted the ball to travel a certain distance, say 18 feet, like the lag, you could follow through a certain distance from your bridge hand, like 6". He had some mathematical formula and I tried a few shots with him, but I am more of a 'feel' player and overanalyzing the shot hurt my brain. :p
 
Linda...That goes counter to our style of teaching. We teach that the exact same length of followthrough (we call it 'your finish position') can be applied for almost any shot, including the break. Our Personal Shooting Template helps players to understand how their bodies work best, with their cue. The changing variable is how much acceleration there is in the forward swing...but the tip goes to the same place on every shot. This is the easiest way, imo, to develop an accurate, repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

rackmsuckr said:
Now that I've thought about it, there's a guy in Seattle, a real student of the game, even though his profession is teaching. He theorized that with a duplicatable stroke, you could predict how far the cue ball would travel, by the length of your followthrough. Conversely, if you wanted the ball to travel a certain distance, say 18 feet, like the lag, you could follow through a certain distance from your bridge hand, like 6". He had some mathematical formula and I tried a few shots with him, but I am more of a 'feel' player and overanalyzing the shot hurt my brain. :p
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
Linda...That goes counter to our style of teaching. We teach that the exact same length of followthrough (we call it 'your finish position') can be applied for almost any shot, including the break. Our Personal Shooting Template helps players to understand how their bodies work best, with their cue. The changing variable is how much acceleration there is in the forward swing...but the tip goes to the same place on every shot. This is the easiest way, imo, to develop an accurate, repeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Yes, I have on almost every shot, the same amount of followthrough. What he was telling me was strange, but it seemed to work for him and a serious departure from conventional wisdom, which is why I was intrigued...for about 15 minutes. BTW, he is not a pool teacher, but a grade school teacher and we call him The Teacher.
 
Neil said:
Several things that I feel haven't been mentioned. First, you HAVE to have a halfway decent table and rails. Some tables, (like the ones I'm stuck on), can very several feet coming off the rail just by moving several inches down the rail. Some rails are half speed of others. Some rails will actually reverse the ball.
Click to expand...

Boy, you are right about that! I once played in a tournament on fast 7' tables and I got just on the wrong side of the 8 ball which meant I would have to go around the world 2-3 rails to get back on the 9 ball. At the time I shot it, I felt the speed was going to be perfect. But don't you know, it hit a dead spot on the 2nd rail and barely made it off the rail. Now I was staring at the 9 on the right side of the end rail, from up table on the same side. :angry:
 
I don't know about the rest of you but I find that if you have a pause on your back stroke before you follow through with your stroke it makes a big difference in the feel of the stroke. You can feel how hard you are stroking the cue ball. If you watch the pro's you will see a number of them pause on their back stroke before following through. What do you think?
 
Scott Lee said:
Dick...Well, I'd say that's pretty insulting! Sorry you feel that way, but your saying it CAN'T be easily taught is at least as ludricrous! There are many hundreds of students (and a hundred or so SPF instructors) who will disagree with you. I know you're "old school", but if you have a closed mind, nothing new can possibly enter it. I've already offered to show you the process. If you can't accept that, without putting it down first, before even trying to understand it, then you're not somebody who is out to help and support the sport, like you claim to be.

Oh, and btw, Jim Meador was a very respected poolplayer, and contributed much good content to the pool forums. He passed away, so now you're insulting the dead too!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott, I guess we have progressed beyond merely a completly different point of view. Now you feel it is necessary to take a cheap shot at my moral values. I did not know Mr. Meador had passed, but that would not have changed my opinion of his style of writing about pool. I said nothing
to besmirch his character, nor would I.
And yes, I am "old school", and proud of it. To assume that I have a closed mind because of that, may be a little shortsighted on your part.
I don't know how old you are, Mr Lee, but I have been in the trenches of
high dollar, competetive pool for probably more years than you have been alive. Granted this does not make me an expert on the "art" of pool instruction.
However, I have seen a few of your rants on here whenever anyone calls into question your "superior" teaching methods.
If you can convince your aspiring students that, if they follow your instructions, i.e. "repeatable stroke" and "instant speed control", and all they have to do is practice and they can become the next Archer or Reyes, then I believe it is you, who are doing them, a disservice.
There is a place for instructors in pool, just as there are in golf, or any other endeavor that requires hand, eye coordination. However, the best instructors in those fields do not make outlandish claims about how "easy" it is to teach those intangibles, because they KNOW they are not EASILY taught !
And that, Mr. Lee, is the crux of our disagreement.

Sincerely,
Dick Mc Morran

PS Scott, I'm sure you're a nice guy. I don't thrive on adversity, so maybe the next time you're out this way, we could have a beer and iron out our differing viewpoints. :)
 
Last edited:
Sir...I believe it was you who, after what was a reasonably polite disagreement (and an offer from me to SHOW you the process, in person), used the descriptive term "ludicrous", regarding our ability to teach speed control easily. The fact is, as pooltcher pointed out, it is quite easy to teach. Whether or not the student practices the right things, the right way, long enough to 'own' them, is always the question. For the ones that do, it is a very effective method of learning to "feel" the swing the cue, to create small increases in velocity, over a range from a lag to a break. Again, this is all based on having a repeatable stroke.

We NEVER make wild claims like you suggest...that if you follow our instruction, you will become as good as Archer or Reyes. THAT would be ludicrous! It is absolutely true, though, that following the proper procedure, does create a lasting ability to 'intuitively' swing the cuestick, at many different speeds, using the same stroke. While they may not jump from a C player to Open speed, we have seen many, many students raise their overall ability by a couple of speeds, quite quickly.

The significant difference between golf instruction and pool instruction is this...ALL golfers automatically know they need to seek instruction, to better their games, and can find it as close as their local golf course. Tiger Woods is already the best golfer in the world, but continues to get instruction, because he KNOWS he can be even better. Poolplayers, on the other hand, by-in-large, do NOT see the potential benefit from seeking qualified instruction, and would much rather spend the money on a new cue, as the answer to their problems!

BTW...I'm 55, so I'm hardly new to pool, having played, gambled, competed, and taught, for 37 yrs...probably not as long as you, but certainly long enough to know what is, and what isn't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SJDinPHX said:
If you can convince your aspiring students that, if they follow your instructions, i.e. "repeatable stroke" and "instant speed control", and all they have to do is practice and they can become the next Archer or Reyes, then I believe it is you, who are doing them, a disservice.
There is a place for instructors in pool, just as there are in golf, or any other endeavor that requires hand, eye coordination. However, the best instructors in those fields do not make outlandish claims about how "easy" it is to teach those intangibles, because they KNOW they are not EASILY taught !
And that, Mr. Lee, is the crux of our disagreement.

Sincerely,
Dick Mc Morran

PS Scott, I'm sure you're a nice guy. I don't thrive on adversity, so maybe the next time you're out this way, we could have a beer and iron out our differing viewpoints. :)
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
SJDinPHX said:
Cleary, thanks, but no thanks.

I don't think I can participate in this thread any longer without becoming insulting. I will not say a good instructor cannot teach basic pool skills to a beginner. After that the instructor becomes a "chiropractor", in that the newbie must keep going back for more lessons to continue his quest for the "Holy pool grail"
I don't know who this Jim Meador is but he talks (and writes ) like a frustrated mechanical engineer. I have known guys who have beautiful strokes, they've been playing for years. They can draw (or follow) their cue ball further than most instuctors I've seen. But they have NEVER mastered pinpoint speed control! It is the most elusive part of our great game. I know you guy's have to make a living too, and I hate to be a knocker, but I know, and I think you all do too, To say that speed control is "easily taught" is absolutely ludicrous! (Scott, try and take something out of context with this post.) ;)

Dick
Click to expand...


Please don't stop posting. I enjoy reading the opinions of players that have attained the pool skills that you posses. I appreciate you sharing your opinions, knowledge and stories.
 
Scott Lee said:
Sir...I believe it was you who, after what was a reasonably polite disagreement (and an offer from me to SHOW you the process, in person), used the descriptive term "ludicrous", regarding our ability to teach speed control easily. The fact is, as pooltcher pointed out, it is quite easy to teach. Whether or not the student practices the right things, the right way, long enough to 'own' them, is always the question. For the ones that do, it is a very effective method of learning to "feel" the swing the cue, to create small increases in velocity, over a range from a lag to a break. Again, this is all based on having a repeatable stroke.

We NEVER make wild claims like you suggest...that if you follow our instruction, you will become as good as Archer or Reyes. THAT would be ludicrous! It is absolutely true, though, that following the proper procedure, does create a lasting ability to 'intuitively' swing the cuestick, at many different speeds, using the same stroke. While they may not jump from a C player to Open speed, we have seen many, many students raise their overall ability by a couple of speeds, quite quickly.

The significant difference between golf instruction and pool instruction is this...ALL golfers automatically know they need to seek instruction, to better their games, and can find it as close as their local golf course. Tiger Woods is already the best golfer in the world, but continues to get instruction, because he KNOWS he can be even better. Poolplayers, on the other hand, by-in-large, do NOT see the potential benefit from seeking qualified instruction, and would much rather spend the money on a new cue, as the answer to their problems!

BTW...I'm 55, so I'm hardly new to pool, having played, gambled, competed, and taught, for 37 yrs...probably not as long as you, but certainly long enough to know what is, and what isn't!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott,

Yes, I am aware that Tiger still takes lessons. (and he should, he only hits the fairway about once per round.) ;) However it is his mastery of the
" intangibles " that keeps him at the top of his sport.
I detect a note of bitterness in your paragraph re; poolplayers, prefering a new cuestick, to lessons. I have to say Scott, you described me to a T.:grin: Let's just agree to disagree and call a truce.
Good luck to you, and I admire you for sticking to your beliefs.

Dick
 
Last edited:
Not at all, Dick! :D Actually, it's just the opposite! We have a favorite saying at pool school: "They don't know what they don't know!" It pretty much says it all! :rolleyes: Fortunately, there are at least 10's of 1000's of intelligent poolplayers, who realize that quality instruction is a path to an improved pool game. Plenty to keep us busy for decades to come! Truce observed, sir.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

SJDinPHX said:
I detect a note of bitterness in your paragraph re; poolplayers, prefering a new cuestick, to lessons.
Dick
Click to expand...
 
Pool

ShootingArts said:
We hash out a handful of subjects over and over on here but it seems that one that is rarely mentioned is one of the most important, speed control. With speed control we can use far less extreme draw, follow, and side. When we use less of these things and rely on speed and natural angles we make far fewer "unforced" errors.

When I played very strong pool my speed control was almost unmatched. Since I came back to pool and found fast tables after a few decades away from the game my speed control has been lousy and everything else is substandard too. I can't help thinking that speed control would keep me out of most of the trouble I get myself into on a table.

QUOTE] LOOK FOR A THICK SHOTS THAT WILL SLOW DOWN SHOTS.

HAL HOULE
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Hal!

Thanks Hal,

Always nice to see you posting and you are right of course. Get the angles right and speed control is far simpler.

Hu





halhoule said:
ShootingArts said:
We hash out a handful of subjects over and over on here but it seems that one that is rarely mentioned is one of the most important, speed control. With speed control we can use far less extreme draw, follow, and side. When we use less of these things and rely on speed and natural angles we make far fewer "unforced" errors.

When I played very strong pool my speed control was almost unmatched. Since I came back to pool and found fast tables after a few decades away from the game my speed control has been lousy and everything else is substandard too. I can't help thinking that speed control would keep me out of most of the trouble I get myself into on a table.

QUOTE] LOOK FOR A THICK SHOTS THAT WILL SLOW DOWN SHOTS.

HAL HOULE
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top