Spin Throw Combinations

TATE said:
I think the cue ball was steeper (greater angle) into the shot than I diagrammed. After trying this some time tonight I was lucky to get the shot I got afterward because the tendancy is to leave the cue ball on the rail.
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Give yourself some credit...you saw a shot in action and you did it....
...sometimes it's hard to duplicate that total set of conditions.
(The nicest shot I've ever made under heat needs about 15 tries on a
good day)

I think you got lucky...the same way Efren does.

..and you remain AZ's favorite appraiser also

regards
pt
 
pt109 said:
Give yourself some credit...you saw a shot in action and you did it....
...sometimes it's hard to duplicate that total set of conditions.
(The nicest shot I've ever made under heat needs about 15 tries on a
good day)

I think you got lucky...the same way Efren does.

..and you remain AZ's favorite appraiser also

regards
pt
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I agree, as I said before. You saw it. You shot it. You made it, & you got the shape you wanted. What else is there? Do you have to write a thesis on it for it to count? You probably set it up a little differently & therefore it needs to be shot a little differently. The 'Yes Sir!' putt that Jack Nicklaus made in the Masters has been tried again by him many times & he has yet to make it again. But when he needed to make, HE DID, & YOU DID. Enjoy it!
 
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TATE said:
Have you tried setting it up? The shot is hit at a fairly low speed, rail first, lots of right english, hitting kind of thickly into the 6. The trick is to throw the 7 ball in, not cut it.
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I understand your setup, Tate :):) But I'm saying it's a matter of actually seeing it happen the way you think it's happening. To begin with, a glancing blow puts natural spin on the OB whether you impart your own english or not to the cb. In other words, you may not need to put spin on the cb.

I can thin an ob on any normal shot and you'll see the ob spin from the contact alone. Just saying,I'd have to see a slo-mo on both shots with and without english on the cb to convince me.

On another note, and I don't know if I'm being picky but I think it's rather important, I don't think that shot can be made as you diagrammed it. If the cb comes off the ob straight down the table, then the cb hit the ob that would take the ob to a path parallel to the rail. At that angle it would hit the third ball in a direct line 1/2 a diamond off the pocket. It is impossible to spin that third ball in that way. Only CONTACT between the 2 and 3 balls could impart such a spin that would pocket a ball. Like I said, there are vagueries here that I question.
 
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LAlouie said:
I understand your setup, Tate :):) But I'm saying it's a matter of actually seeing it happen the way you think it's happening. To begin with, a glancing blow puts natural spin on the OB whether you impart your own english or not to the cb. In other words, you may not need to put spin on the cb.

I can thin an ob on any normal shot and you'll see the ob spin from the contact alone. Just saying,I'd have to see a slo-mo on both shots with and without english on the cb to convince me.

On another note, and I don't know if I'm being picky but I think it's rather important, I don't think that shot can be made as you diagrammed it. If the cb comes off the ob straight down the table, then the cb hit the ob that would take the ob to a path parallel to the rail. At that angle it would hit the third ball in a direct line 1/2 a diamond off the pocket. It is impossible to spin that third ball in that way. Only CONTACT between the 2 and 3 balls could impart such a spin that would pocket a ball. Like I said, there are vagueries here that I question.
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Try this: set up the shot so that the 6 and 7 are about 1/2 inch apart aiming outside the pocket, but 7 can't be made by cut alone. Then use right english with a half ball hit, you will see how much the shot can be thrown.

The geometry is one thing but on these type of shots contact or cut throw is a big factor. The reason why the 7 is difficult to cut in without spin is because there is cut throw between the 6 and 7 that tends to push the 7 away from the pocket.

There is not enough throw spin imparted on a center ball cut shot to affect a combo. You can test this by using clean balls and lining up a striped ball object ball to notice any spin. You'll see the throw spin is minimal or not existent (although there is cut throw).

If you want, I'll make a video of the shot tomorrow.
 
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TATE said:
Try this: set up the shot so that the 6 and 7 are about 1/2 inch apart aiming outside the pocket, but 7 can't be made by cut alone. Then use right english with a half ball hit, you will see how much the shot can be thrown.

The geometry is one thing but on these type of shots contact throw is a big factor. The reason why the 7 is difficult to cut in without spin is because there is contact throw between the 6 and 7 that tends to push the 7 away from the pocket.

There is not enough throw spin imparted on a center ball cut shot to affect a combo. You can test this by using clean balls and lining up a striped ball object ball to notice any spin. You'll see the thow spin is minimal or not existent (although there is contact throw).


I agree with you. Maybe there is a terminology MISunderstanding. The contact throw you refer to is what we called 'in the old days' a 'push', not a stick push but a ball push. It comes from the momentum of the ball hitting the other ball on the angle. It 'pushes' just a little before it starts out on the angle of the cut. It has nothing to do with spin. It is not enough to make you miss 'normally'. But... when you get really tight like 'no room for error' it can. Shooters that don't know about it may miss because of it. I obviously know about it & I miss when I MIScalculate its' effect on a ball. As I've said before, good on you for making the shot & for knowing how to make it.

PS I doubt that your diagram actually shows how 'tight', no room for error, that it actually was.
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ENGLISH! said:
I agree with you. Maybe there is a terminology MISunderstanding. The contact throw you refer to is what we called 'in the old days' a 'push', not a stick push but a ball push. It comes from the momentum of the ball hitting the other ball on the angle. It 'pushes' just a little before it starts out on the angle of the cut. It has nothing to do with spin. It is not enough to make you miss 'normally'. But... when you get really tight like 'no room for error' it can. Shooters that don't know about it may miss because of it. I obviously know about it & I miss when I MIScalculate its' effect on a ball. As I've said before, good on you for making the shot & for knowing how to make it.

PS I doubt that your diagram actually shows how 'tight', no room for error, that it actually was.
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Yes, the "push" is cut throw (the result of friction).

I'm going to go ahead and do the video tomorrow because if nothing else it clearly shows how combo's are thrown with spin.
 
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TATE said:
Yes, the "push" is contact throw (the result of friction).

I'm going to go ahead and do the video tomorrow because if nothing else it clearly shows how combo's are thrown with spin.
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Fantastic! Maybe it will clear some things up. A picture is worth a thousand words & a video... well it's a video. But... a slow mo video can be eye & mind opening.
 
Banks said:
I understood what shot you were talking about, but he keeps on trying to change the shot from what the OP is talking about.

...nevermind. :banghead:
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So TATE quotes me, saying the shot I described isn't possible doing ball first, ENGLISH! quotes that trying to say what I was saying is possible, you quote that and say he doesn't understand what I was describing. I don't get what your goal was.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
So TATE quotes me, saying the shot I described isn't possible doing ball first, ENGLISH! quotes that trying to say what I was saying is possible, you quote that and say he doesn't understand what I was describing. I don't get what your goal was.
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No, I quoted his response to LALouie. :banghead::banghead::thud:
 
TATE said:
Yes, the "push" is contact throw (the result of friction).

I'm going to go ahead and do the video tomorrow because if nothing else it clearly shows how combo's are thrown with spin.
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Cool, TATE.

Make 2 vids. One with your english on the cb, and one without. And a still of the two object balls from atop view if you don't mind :) :)
 
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LAlouie said:
Cool, TATE.

Make 2 vids. One with your english on the cb, and one without. And a still of the two object balls from atop view if you don't mind :) :)
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Here you go - video below. I used reinforcement rings to make sure the balls were in the same position. I think you'll see from the demo shots they can't be made without throw.

Honestly, feel free to express whatever opinion - whether it's skepticism, or thought or question or anything. This is not about who's right or wrong. The conversation helped me attempt to understand what I intuitively thought would happen when I played the shot the way I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A6GTYuRV5g&feature=youtu.be
 
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Here's a photo of the set up. Check out my tiny corner pocket.
 

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  • Spin Throw setup.jpg
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TATE said:
Here you go - video below. I used reinforcement rings to make sure the balls were in the same position. I think you'll see from the demo shots they can't be made without throw.

Honestly, feel free to express whatever opinion - whether it's skepticism, or thought or question or anything. This is not about who's right or wrong. The conversation helped me attempt to understand what I intuitively thought would happen when I played the shot the way I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A6GTYuRV5g&feature=youtu.be
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With me, the jury is still out on whether it's transferred spin to the second
object ball ...or...the right hand english allows you to cut the 8-ball more.

Is that table a Gibson?
 
I could be wrong but:
- You are using right spin to throw a ball to the left which then it throw a ball to the right ( because of the left spin). I don't think the amount of spin is enough to throw two balls. I believe in throwing ( as many do) a ball with the spin but I don't believe in throwing two balls like you are stating.
- To my knowledge there is a limit where even if you are using more spin you don't get more throw. So maybe using a "lot of right english" is not useful in that particular shot.
 
pt109 said:
With me, the jury is still out on whether it's transferred spin to the second
object ball ...or...the right hand english allows you to cut the 8-ball more.

Is that table a Gibson?
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If you look at the video again, I'm not cutting the 8 much. At most it's about a tip right of center on the 8. I can throw this shot in without even cutting the 8.
 
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