Thanks Scott, I will do that. Its going to be another one of those eye openers.
Split Hit
- Thread starter Joe Pickens
- Start date
There have been some really good responses to this question.
I believe that to just generically call a shot a split hit is a bad call. An experienced poolplayer can confidentally make a call by the way the balls interact when struck. You really have to examine the balls and their placement before the shot otherwise your eyes can play tricks on you.
The only way to eliminate arguments is have good protocol for watching hits.
If it looks like its gonna be close call, find an impartial experienced player/ref to watch the hit.
This way if you still don't like the call that was made, the argument isn't between the two players in a match it is between the grumpy party and the ref.
If you don't have someone watch the hit and it is controversial---> the call goes to the shooter.
Shady people can manipulate this by shooting sketchy shots really quickly (before the opponent knows what happened) knowing that the call would go their way.... but in my experience this rarely ever happens. It is very unsportsmanlike.
Dudley
I believe that to just generically call a shot a split hit is a bad call. An experienced poolplayer can confidentally make a call by the way the balls interact when struck. You really have to examine the balls and their placement before the shot otherwise your eyes can play tricks on you.
The only way to eliminate arguments is have good protocol for watching hits.
If it looks like its gonna be close call, find an impartial experienced player/ref to watch the hit.
This way if you still don't like the call that was made, the argument isn't between the two players in a match it is between the grumpy party and the ref.
If you don't have someone watch the hit and it is controversial---> the call goes to the shooter.
Shady people can manipulate this by shooting sketchy shots really quickly (before the opponent knows what happened) knowing that the call would go their way.... but in my experience this rarely ever happens. It is very unsportsmanlike.
Dudley
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It is very important to note than when calling hits, especially "split hits" involving 2 balls that watching the path of the cue ball is of the utmost importance. On 100% of all hits the path of the CB is ALWAYS in direct correlation to the 2nd ball hit. In other words, the path of the cue ball ALWAYS follows off the 2nd ball hit.
I recall the Bustamante versus Peach WPC match that was referenced here. Fortunately, upon reviewing the video footage it did seem conclusive that it was a foul (except perhaps to die-hard Bustamante fans? <grin>)
I had an Accu-stats match between Evgeny Stalev and Charlie Williams (I'm certain about the Stalev part anyway), where Stalev shot the closest thing to a "split hit" I've seen on video. In that case even with reviewing the video footage over and over again (the Accu-stats commentators did so while discussing it), it really did seem impossible to tell.
Of course, your average bar table banger likes to say "split hit" even when it's not even close to a split hit, then clearly foul and keep shooting
I had an Accu-stats match between Evgeny Stalev and Charlie Williams (I'm certain about the Stalev part anyway), where Stalev shot the closest thing to a "split hit" I've seen on video. In that case even with reviewing the video footage over and over again (the Accu-stats commentators did so while discussing it), it really did seem impossible to tell.
Of course, your average bar table banger likes to say "split hit" even when it's not even close to a split hit, then clearly foul and keep shooting
A few years ago I was helping with a referee training course at the BCA Nationals, and I set up the shot described above in which two object balls are frozen together and the cue ball is shot along their tangent line to hit them nearly simultaneously. Of course you never hit exactly at the same time, so the cue ball (with draw) will come off at about 45 degrees to either the left or right and it's pretty easy to tell that the cue ball must have hit on the right or left ball first. Except the cue ball drew straight back on one shot. With the two object balls frozen:
![CropperCapture[1].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/124/124720-a63a6fd11b78d7175fb6a333dc6fbfe9.jpg?hash=pjpv0Rt41x "CropperCapture[1].png")
Move the object balls so that they are a quarter-dollar apart, and it's easy to draw the cue ball straight back when shooting between the balls.
Move the object balls so that they are a quarter-dollar apart, and it's easy to draw the cue ball straight back when shooting between the balls.
Yes, that would be true for a hit that wasn't really split, but in a true split hit, there is no 2nd ball, but rather 2 1st balls. But, you are right, watching the path the cue ball takes after the hit, as well as the object balls themselves will usually tell you if it was a true split hit or not.
I recall the Bustamante versus Peach WPC match that was referenced here. Fortunately, upon reviewing the video footage it did seem conclusive that it was a foul (except perhaps to die-hard Bustamante fans? <grin>)
I had an Accu-stats match between Evgeny Stalev and Charlie Williams (I'm certain about the Stalev part anyway), where Stalev shot the closest thing to a "split hit" I've seen on video. In that case even with reviewing the video footage over and over again (the Accu-stats commentators did so while discussing it), it really did seem impossible to tell.
Of course, your average bar table banger likes to say "split hit" even when it's not even close to a split hit, then clearly foul and keep shooting
yeah, i remember that one.
so my new question is for you all..... if you are at the table, and a ref (lets say a good one) is calling the hit, and you know you made a bad hit and he calls it good-- what do you do?? i think its fine to say nothing. i feel very strongly about this and ill explain why....
1st, calls will go against you in your life too.... you need to shut up and sit down in these instances, so i think the opposite should be true as well.
2nd, do we expect a player that is in the chair to get up and scream "no it was a good hit" when the hit is called bad in error. i think we can all answer no to this, we do not expect that. so why on earth do we expect the shooter to call a foul on himself. it is the same exact thing if you think about it.
so, again, i dont think players should not be frowned upon for not calling fouls on themselves for the above reasons. if you want to do it, fine, but dont knock those who dont (i saw strickland take some heat for this once, and i think it was unjustified heat).
If there is a ref, it falls on him to call the game, not you. Once the ref is in play, his calls become the rule. If it was truly bad, but he called it good, it becomes good because he is the official of the match. Nobody should be expected to call fouls on themselves in this situation as it defeats the whole point of having a ref in the first place.
Check out the following video:
In the last shot, you did manage to hit both balls simultaneously (or as close to "simultaneously" as the high-speed camera can detect).
FYI to people interested, more videos dealing with how to determine which ball is hit first, for different situations, can be found here:
Regards,
Dave
If the cue ball was centered on the two object balls and perpendicular to them I would think that you could tell which ball was struck first by how much energy went into either ball in what order. If the right ball traveled further faster it was struck before the other ball. If they both went the same distance at the same time I think you had a near perfect split hit.
What do i know though.... I'm just a pool player. (not a certified ref)
Dudley
What do i know though.... I'm just a pool player. (not a certified ref)
Dudley
I will always call a bad hit on myself. Not because I have too. Just because in some small way I believe in Karma. When you knowingly cheat I believe the pool Gods punish you.
There are too many times when you can't predict a foul. All those times would go to the shooter if everyone thought that way. You want to talk about arguments??? Sounds like a big headache to me.
What about the time you accidentally touch the tip with your cue and your opponent doesn't see but the whole rail sweating your match does. Would you still not call that on yourself?
I don't like the baggage that comes with a guilty conscience.
To each his own.
Dudley
As in baseball, the tie goes to the runner.