Split Hit

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Don't split em.

This is how I play these shots & my humble opinion on how they should be played. I feel it is the shooters responsibiliy to make a good hit. To attempt to do otherwise amounts to cheating. Therefore when I shoot these types of shots I shoot them in a manner that is fairly obvious & immediately ask my opponent in an affirmative manner, 'good hit, right?' I do not shoot them in a manner that makes it more difficult to tell & if a can not, I do not shoot them unless there is no other option.

This is just me & how I do it. I know some will disagree & that's okay.

To each his own. I'm just offering a suggestion for future reference.

Regards,
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
DrDave has a video showing how to determine which ball was struck first by the path of the cue ball, but I can find it right now. Hopefully he'll see this thread and chime in.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Thanks for the link, Neil. As usual, one look at Dr. Dave's excellent material is worth more than any number of opinions/guesses.

The video shows one thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: in determing the hit by how the cue ball moves afterward, it matters how far apart the object balls are.

- If the OBs are just far enough apart to form a 90-degree angle with the cue ball when it's touching both of them (0.9 inch apart), then the cue ball won't clearly go in one direction or the other and you can't tell which was struck first - call goes to the shooter.

- If the OBs are less than 0.9 inch apart (forming less than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes away from the one struck first.

- If the OBs are more than 0.9 inch apart (forming more than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes toward the one struck first.

You can also tell in many cases by watching how far/fast the OBs go. The one that goes farther/faster was struck first.

Thanks again, Dave and Bob!

pj
chgo
 
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TSW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From the WSR regulations:

26. Split Hits
If the cue ball strikes a legal object ball and a non-legal object ball at approximately the same instant, and it cannot be determined which ball was hit first, it will be assumed that the legal target was struck first.

The regulations often fill in the details of how rules are to be applied, so you need to read them as well. See: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_regulations

Thanks Bob. I navigated directly from Google to the rules page and didn't see the regulations in the drop-down menu. This is a sensible regulation.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I can always retort:

"Yes, it appeared a split hit to you. But I have much better vision than you, and I was able to see that it hit this ball first. And, if you were empowered with the same vision as me, you would also agree."

And then where shoud the argument lead from this point?

To a thread on azbilliards.
 

GeoEnvi

Diamond System Enthusiast
Silver Member
Thanks for the link, Neil. As usual, one look at Dr. Dave's excellent material is worth more than any number of opinions/guesses.

The video shows one thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: in determing the hit by how the cue ball moves afterward, it matters how far apart the object balls are.

- If the OBs are just far enough apart to form a 90-degree angle with the cue ball when it's touching both of them, then the cue ball won't clearly go in one direction or the other and you can't tell which was struck first.

- If the OBs are less than 0.9 inch apart (forming less than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes away from the one struck first.

- If the OBs are more than 0.9 inch apart (forming more than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes toward the one struck first.

You can also tell in many cases by watching how far/fast the OBs go. The one that goes farther/faster was struck first.

Thanks again, Dave and Bob!

pj
chgo

Great follow up on the discussion!
 

Buckzapper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If it's too close to call, experienced and reasonable people know the benefit goes to the shooter.

I agree and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt with a gracious smile. It rarely will mean the difference in winning. Players need to strive for good character and honesty in playing, or they will never gain any respect.
 

Jdale

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, maybe, but there are some cases where it is impossible to tell whether it was good or bad. What do you think the referee should do if he cannot determine which ball was struck first?

IMHO,sometimes you can hear better than your eyes can see, if you got good ears listen for the click/clicks. Works for me. Is a split hit a foul, in my book yes, may not be that way with everyone though. JDale
 

TRWpool

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't think I've ever seen a split hit. It's like hitting the lottery. Most times you can tell which ball was hit first by analyzing the reaction the cue ball takes. On a hard hit you will never be able to visually tell which ball was hit first unless high speed video is used.

Tom
 

GoldCrown

Pool players have more balls
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you for the replies. It does not change anything in our league....but lets us draw a fair conclusion. All rules do effect each player the same...so the playing field is level regardless if we like the rule or not.
 
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BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the link, Neil. As usual, one look at Dr. Dave's excellent material is worth more than any number of opinions/guesses.

The video shows one thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: in determing the hit by how the cue ball moves afterward, it matters how far apart the object balls are.

- If the OBs are just far enough apart to form a 90-degree angle with the cue ball when it's touching both of them (0.9 inch apart), then the cue ball won't clearly go in one direction or the other and you can't tell which was struck first - call goes to the shooter.

- If the OBs are less than 0.9 inch apart (forming less than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes away from the one struck first.

- If the OBs are more than 0.9 inch apart (forming more than a 90-degree angle with the CB), then the cue ball goes toward the one struck first.

You can also tell in many cases by watching how far/fast the OBs go. The one that goes farther/faster was struck first.

Thanks again, Dave and Bob!

pj
chgo

This sounds good to me.

I guess the one exception would be the ultra thin hit on the wrong ball prior to hitting the targeted ball. I'm talking about a hit so thin it would barely even move the object ball. I suspect this could happen from time to time but it would be really difficult to see.

One other thing that I think is important is I use to think it was sort of taking the high road to avoid these types of shots. However, I now realize that I was inadvertently handicapping myself. I've noticed that great players do not fear these close hits. They understand them and they shoot them.

What I don't do is hurry up and fire them in before someone can come over and watch the hit. I acknowledge that it's going to be a close hit and I make sure that someone knowledgeable is called over to watch it.

I think if you always avoid these types of shots you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I guess the one exception would be the ultra thin hit on the wrong ball prior to hitting the targeted ball. I'm talking about a hit so thin it would barely even move the object ball. I suspect this could happen from time to time but it would be really difficult to see.
Yes, that would be a second case where it's too close to call (and therefore goes to the shooter). Good catch.

pj
chgo
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
There is no such thing as a Split Hit. Watch the cueball..if the cueball goes to the right, after the shot, that means that it hit the ball on the left first. If it goes to the left after the shot, it hit the ball on the right first.
A split hit is possible, but extremely unlikely. I agree with you that one simple needs to observe how the CB and/or OBs move. If a foul is not clear (via the action of the balls), no foul can be called. Bob Jewett and I describe and demonstrate everything to look for in the following videos:

The following instructional article also covers this subject:

At the end of the NV B.53 video, we may have gotten a split hit, but it is impossible to tell (even with super-slow motion video).

Regards,
Dave
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A great test of "split hits" is something Jerry Briesath showed me 30+ years ago...freeze three balls together, with the odd ball towards the middle of the side pocket. Place the CB directly opposite the three frozen balls. Try to pocket the single OB frozen to the frozen pair, trying to get a split hit. You MIGHT make it once in a 100 tries. Move the CB right or left of the balls a few inches and you can pocket the OB every time. This is a proposition shot from decades ago.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
Not only does the benefit go to the shooter in close-call situations... I feel that unless a shot is UNQUESTIONABLY bad, there's no foul.

Not sure if the rest of the world agrees with me. Basically if someone tries to say "I'm pretty sure that was a bad hit" or "I'm almost positive" or "I'm 90% sure"... I tell them that means it's a good hit, because if there's even a little doubt, it goes to the shooter.

I think this saves on a lot of arguments. You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Not only does the benefit go to the shooter in close-call situations... I feel that unless a shot is UNQUESTIONABLY bad, there's no foul.

Not sure if the rest of the world agrees with me. Basically if someone tries to say "I'm pretty sure that was a bad hit" or "I'm almost positive" or "I'm 90% sure"... I tell them that means it's a good hit, because if there's even a little doubt, it goes to the shooter.

I think this saves on a lot of arguments. You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?

Most money players will play this way...benefit of the doubt goes to the
shooter. Nobody wants to match up with a pool room lawyer.
Anything close should have a third party to call it....and never argue with
the call...it is bad form.

I've only knowingly seen ONE split hit in my life...at least as as close as
it is humanly possible to call.
 

neuron

Registered
I remember reading a Bob Jewitt article on this recently, it was on www. sfbilliards.com. Without going into all the technical background (proven with high speed video cameras), Bob established there is a near impossible likelihood of a perfect split hit. According to the article, you determine which ball gets hit first by the resultant carom path of the CB. Say the ball to be hit first in on the right, hitting the OB on the left would be a bad hit. If the CB caroms to left and back, it means the ball on the right was hit first. Vice versa for a bad hit. In the unlikely event the shooter is able to make a perfect split hit, the CB would come straight back down the path it is shot from.
Excellent info...definitely going to look up that article this evening when I have a bit more time.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You must be POSITIVE there's a foul in order to call one. Does anyone else play this way?
Everyone that I've played with more than once. Sometimes I think I probably fouled and will call it on myself, and I expect that sometimes from my opponents too.

pj
chgo
 
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JasBy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While I agree that using the reaction of the cue ball as an accurate indicator of which ball was hit first... every time I have ever tried to explain that to someone after I judged a shot I have gotten a glassy-eyed 'Huh?' followed closely by pointed look saying 'Whatever nerd' :smile:
 
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