splitting tournament winnings

[JoeyA]

I won't argue with you son. I have been there and know how the bettors and players feel about it. You just don't go back where the big bettors are and talk about savers. As a matter of fact, it is between the players and the stakehorses. When was the last time you staked somebody and how much did you win/lose?
Don "Purdman" Purdy
"2006 US Open 9 Ball Champions Stakehorse"

Geeze, Purdy. How long are you going to ride that OLD nag?
JoeyA

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Going home with 50k or nothing seems like a lot more pre match pressure to me which in turn would affect the play of someone in the match.

Never really been a fulltime poolplayer, had kids to raise, so I haven't seen from other than that point of view.

I appreciate the "players point of view" on the money. But that wasn't my point.

The only time 50k is on the line here in the states is in an invite only tournament of champions type of deal. Thats also the only time you'll see a "winner" take all kind of tournament.

Outside of that, you're only going to find winner take all in a small local tournament. You're mistaken on how much the prize money is, which I think is helping to skew your view a little.

The average first place payout for a pro event is $10,000. Regional tours, which is where a lot of players make their bread & butter is roughly $1000 to $2000. Neither of these events are winner take all.

Nothing wrong with choosing to have a family and a job (a lot of us chose that route). However, the outlook from your perspective and that from a player are two different things.

My neighbor knows nothing about pool and if they were to find themselves in the finals of a local tournament & they were asked to split, they would think that is absurd, as would most people outside of the gambling world.

Remnants of my freaking ego man. I apologize. I am working on it.
Congratulations on the stable life, income, and the health insurance.
Hit em straight!
Peace, Purdman

No problem. I appreciate your honesty, have a good day.

 

[tsollman]

I am sure it was last October, has been on ESPN several times. First airing was in December 26 or 27/2007. It was an Invitational. Most players think this tournament is a joke, but still paid 50k winner take all. don't like to name names. "Speed Pool".

 

[manwon]

I was talking to a guy that had recently won a major tournament. Winner take all event. He was telling me they had agreed to split the winnings no matter who won.
I personally have a problem with this. I feel it takes something away from the game. I have never split with anyone. If I win, I win the larger bankroll. If I lose then I lose. It probably isn't the wisest move financially on my part, but that's my train of thought. I guess I am just Greedy . I would like to hear other's opinions on this subject as my friend thinks I am an idiot, and I would do the same in his shoes.

I don't think your an idiot, and I think you have a valid point. Splitting tournaments is designed to take a little pressure off when playing for the cash. In most cases when this occurs you will see the two or three good players who play the tournament make an agreement with each other. This way they know that they will be in the money or some part of it, and many times they will play it in the following manner just to insure that the odds are on in their favor. Before the start of the tournament no matter the draw they will have a plan that one of them will immediately go to the losers bracket. This way they are knocking weaker players out in both brackets which only helps to secure their position. In most cases on the winners side if two of these individuals meet at the point, the strongest player will allow the other player to win the point, which sends the strongest player to the third place position on the losers side. By doing things in this manner with three players in on the split they have a chance to take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd or 4th places which increases their profits when they split.

This is very common in smaller weekly or monthly tournaments, many people never see it happening because they switch it up, and because they are known to be good players anyway. These players normally run in packs and play in a number of tournaments every weak in a 25 mile area. I see this in the tournaments I run in my pool room, and I know it has been going on forever, it is just part of the game.

An easy fix is handicap the tournament you are running. Maker players who win 1st place sit out for two weeks, or change the race for them by adding a game or two that they must win. The important thing you must remember is that you want the better players to come to your tournaments. This is the only way to challenge the weaker players to improve, if you lose some of your weaker players because they can't ever seem to win. They most likely did not have the heart to meet the challenge anyway, and this is cheaper than trying to play sets and figure out what a fair spot. Because most of us already know, that when someone offers you a spot to play them some in most cases they are doing it because they know they have the NUTS!!!!!!

 

[Russ Chewning]

Don't you think you deserve a certain share of the cash that one or more of your buddies may win?

dave

For what? The gas money they contributed? Sorry, but if I am going to travel to a tournament with some other people, the only reason I am doing so it to reduce expenses, and to COMPETE. I am not doing so to give away any of my hard-earned winnings.

Personally, I would never make another saver with another player. Winning first place and having to give up some of the money would leave an extremely sour taste in my mouth.

I made a saver ONCE (when I didn't really know much about gambling) with a guy in a video game tournament. There were three guys left in the tournament, and me and the guy I made a saver with were collectively heavily favored over the third guy. This led to a situation where we played each other in the middle of the tournament, and I lost to him. The competitive fire was not there, because either one who won that match was heavily favored to win the whole tournament, and the one who lost was heavily favored to come in second. We were really that far above the field.

What happened? The third guy had the tournament of his life, we dogged it a bit, he beat both of us, and we split 2nd/3rd, instead of 1rst/2nd. What makes it even worse, is that I was a decent favorite over the guy I made a saver with. Not as much as either one of us over the third, but still. It was a sizeable prize fund (payout better than some regional pool events), and I still think to this day how badly I wanted that 1rst place money and trophy. That was nearly 13 years ago, BTW. Yes, I am an EXTREMELY competitive person.

For me, the saver changed the motivation behind competing, and made it about money. All the other times I played that video game tournament (Fast Draw Showdown), I was playing to WIN, and to protect what I saw as my TERRITORY. So when the motivation changed, for me personally, it made it harder to have that killer instinct.

I understand others have different motivation when going to tournaments. I am happy to have just enough money on the line to make it worth competing for. To make the time invested worth the payoff. That's why I can play hours and hours for $100.00 a set, and don't need to raise the stakes, because if I come out ahead three sets in 8 hours, that's a decent hourly rate, after the time bill and lunch/dinner.

I don't look down on anyone who does make savers..It's just not for me, is all I am saying.

Russ

 

[Snapshot9]

Sorry, but I would not play in your tournament. We have a weekly tourn., that up until recently, I either ran, or helped run. It's only a $5 entry. Not uncommon to get 32 people in it. With your payouts, 3rd gets $5, 2nd gets $10, and first gets $145.

Normally, there are a couple of players that are going to win it most of the time. In our case, it happens to be Jason Kirkwood. With your payouts, it becomes a 'let's support Jason' event. Not a tournament. I'll be darn if I'm going to come through a 32 man field, lose one match, and only double my entry fee.

This is how I broke it down for a local weekly 32 man tournament-

1st-$65 2nd-$45 3rd-$30 4th-$20

This way, people get a chance to win a little something for doing good in the tournament. And people are more willing to participate in it when they have a chance to win something.

Just a side-note- Usually Jason would run it. He would pay about $75 or $80 for first. (duh) I would run it when he wasn't there, and have the payouts I listed. A lot of times I would then win it. So, in a way, I was cutting my own throat. But the way I see it, if more peole get paid, more are willing to try for it. If you keep going where the winner gets all the money, eventually, people will figure out that the same couple guys keep getting it, and won't play anymore. Thereby, killing the tournament.

Sorry, but I wouldn't play in a 32 man tournament to only win $65. Talk about cheap! I have played in a 16 man tournament to win $50, but that is when I have nothing better to do. To me, if 1st doesn't pay $80, it is hardly worth my time. Any 32 player tournament should pay about a $150 for 1st, up the entry to $10, drop some players, and run the tournament faster. Doesn't the pool room add money? They got 32 people there drinking and eating and they don't add money?

I play in 8 man tournaments that cost $10 to enter, room owner matches the pot, and it pays $90 or $100 for 1st on a weekly basis. They have a monthly 9 ball, cost $25, room owner puts in $300 for 16 players, $500 for 32 players, race to 6.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[av84fun]

The "Winner Take All" format is just a lame and largely unsuccessful to hype TV audience viewership by making the prize money sound larger than it reall is.

A $50k total purse is about what would be paid out in normal splits where the winner gets around $15-20k.

The format only demonstrates how tough it is out there for the pros when they have to submit to going to considerable expense to play in an event where only one person will take home even enough money to cover travel expenses.

So, many pros simply create their own payout splits by agreement between themselves.

No one should have any problem with that. Just don't believe the hype about he first prize (and only) money and consider it a normal tournament.

No problem.

Regards,
Jim

 

[commswatch]

While I have no problem with the percentage of the prize money being changed, I would have every problem in the world with players not playing the final match. Thats the kind of thing that affects the integrity of the game.

Fans pay to watch tournaments and they should be given a fair, tough fought finals match to watch. Shame on any promoter that would allow this to happen. If the players decided not to play, then I wouldn't pay them the prize money. They have to finish their job in order to get paid.

I would tend to agree, IF the tourney in question is a large one (with paying spectators). otherwise, splits are a part of the game..both players making it to the finals busted there a$$ to get there, and if they decide to split, thats their decision, and theirs only.

 

[Purdman]

Geeze, Purdy. How long are you going to ride that OLD nag?
JoeyA

Till you up one me JoeyA, then it's over good buddy.
Purd

 

[Johnnyt]

I guess I think, that if you decide to split with somebody and play the match, a lot of pressure is removed from that match. Going home with 50k or nothing seems like a lot more pre match pressure to me which in turn would affect the play of someone in the match.
As for staking anybody, I think stake horses get cut up more than they know by the players, but if you got the money to burn, I guess burn it.
Never really been a fulltime poolplayer, had kids to raise, so I haven't seen from other than that point of view.
Would have liked to have followed that path, but I think I chose the right one for me.
I appreciate the "players point of view" on the money. But that wasn't my point.

Most stakehorses are just rich groupies. Johnnyt

 

[ironman]

I was talking to a guy that had recently won a major tournament. Winner take all event. He was telling me they had agreed to split the winnings no matter who won.
I personally have a problem with this. I feel it takes something away from the game. I have never split with anyone. If I win, I win the larger bankroll. If I lose then I lose. It probably isn't the wisest move financially on my part, but that's my train of thought. I guess I am just Greedy . I would like to hear other's opinions on this subject as my friend thinks I am an idiot, and I would do the same in his shoes.

It happens all the time and most know it by now. Most are just scared and takiing a shot at taking home the most they can.

What amazes me about the whole thing is how so many people know about it. I understand that most are guessing and just ache to make good players look as stupid as possible, but, when it is done, why not shut the hell up and not loet these "Pinkos" know their business. That to me, is the dumb part.

 

[JoeyA]

Till you up one me JoeyA, then it's over good buddy.
Purd

Purdman,
I am all over that. I have staked at least one poolplayer every month since 2006. That puts me way over the top.

Back at ya, good buddy.
JoeyA

 

[corvette1340]

lol at people just realizing that this goes on all the time. This is just part of the pool world. "Savers" are made at almost every tournament at some level. I know of a lot of pros that always make savers with each other. I also know of some that will be the two favorite at most events and they will agree to split all winnings up front. They will also buy half, all , or none of themselves in the calcutta depending on the price. If they end up going against each other for the win, then obviously the one that they have the larger piece of in the calcutta will win. It's sad that this is the case because its not fair to the calcutta buyers, but it happens all the time.

 

[Purdman]

Purdman,
I am all over that. I have staked at least one poolplayer every month since 2006. That puts me way over the top.

Back at ya, good buddy.
JoeyA

How's that working for ya Joey?

JoeyA, I have only staked one player in 58.5 years. Perhaps it is the quality not the quantity that counts. I also rarely gamble my friend. I prefer to spend my money on my loved ones and those that I can really help.
Purdman