Sportmanship question (let me put on my flack jacket....)

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
During regular league play, I'll tell them every time that I see it. During playoffs/tournaments, it depends on who I'm playing. If I know them and are friends, I'll very likely tell them. If its someone I don't know, or someone who hasn't been reciprocal in the past...probably not.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why would you not feel a need to call a foul on yourself when you inadvertently touch the cue ball with your tip when preparing to shoot? I disagree - you almost always know when you do it.

Not calling that foul on yourself is no different than not calling any other foul you commit on yourself. Whether or not you think your opponent saw it should have absolutely no bearing on whether you call the foul on yourself. It’s called integrity.

Do you really thinks it’s fair to put your opponent in the position of having to stop and question you as to whether you touched the cue ball? And if they do, what are you going to say? Lie that you didn’t touch it or admit that you did but you weren’t honest enough to call it on yourself?


Good thing you own a pool hall. Reading comprehension ain't your strong point!

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Care to explain?


I already have explained. The same post you quoted part of made it very plain that I called fouls on myself even if the rules didn't require it. You went off on a wild rant directed at me for something I never said.

Hu
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I already have explained. The same post you quoted part of made it very plain that I called fouls on myself even if the rules didn't require it. You went off on a wild rant directed at me for something I never said.

Hu
I wasn’t going off on you personally. I was just making the point that anyone that thinks it’s OK to not call a foul on themself when their tip inadvertently touches the cue ball at address is no different than someone who fails to call a foul on themself for any other foul they may commit.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just trying to get the pulse of the community.

Playing in a league singles regional qualifier. Top bracket (NAPA 100+). I'm nervous and down 2-0 race to 6, been in my chair since racking game 1. Get to the table, run 2 thru 5 and for some reason didn't see the 6. My pattern just didn't include it. I shot the 7 out of sequence - my opponent immediately calls a foul, since he standing near the table watching.

I'm not judging , just curious as to how many folks would have said something before I shot?

In a regional qualifier, I would not have. There is a saying I read, I think from the Art of War "when your opponent is making errors, allow them to do so". In some weekly cheap thing or even for a little money, if I noticed they were about to shoot at the wrong ball I would let them know. For a match with a pretty major outcome as well as having a league team depending on the outcome, it's not up to the opponent or a ref to note a mistake about to happen.

One thing about this, why did not one of the team-mates call a time out before you shot? That is the point of a coach or some other player to pay attention to the match along with you.

Just recently I was playing a game against someone using some funky sparkly Aramith balls where the colors were all messed up. I went through the rack and was lining up on the 6 ball when I noticed the 2 was sitting there next to me LOL We both agreed that due to the color of the set to just have him take over the current position without ball in hand and start at the 2, it was pretty good position on the shot anyway.
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
I've done both things.

I've said something to my opponent when it was blatantly obvious he was shooting out of sequence.

I've also not noticed and called a foul after, or waited on them to realize they shot the six for shape on the 5........ what else do you want from me? Want me to tell you there's chalk under your bridge hand? Want me to tell you to watch out for the rake, it's not all the way under the table? Figure it out. I'm not going to hold my opponents hand into a run-out, that's his job....

Side note: I've also legitimately thought someone was just lining up something for position/safety, and watched them pull the trigger on the wrong ball. Dumbfounded, I called a foul.
 

DelawareDogs

I'll take 2 the and break
Silver Member
We had a player on the opposing team brush the wrong ball on the way by with the cue ball and the opponent who was my team mate was blocked from view by someone walking in front of him where he was sitting at the exact moment of the shot. The shooter didn't call it on himself even though he knew damned well my team mate couldn't have seen it if he wanted to and that he fouled. And frankly in league we don't feel the need to watch super close because for the most part players are honest.


After the game he said he knew he fouled but it wasn't his place to call it. Well it wasn't our place to call him "Cheating Bill" right up until he died either but we did it anyway.

Moral of the story? If you don't want the prefix of your name to be known as "cheating" have integrity.
Damn, and there it is. :cool:

At the SBE one year, I'm shooting a 6 ball, leaned over. It's a close-together shot near the rail, and when I stroke it.... I feel the CB come back and just brush my tip again.

My opponent didn't see it, my back was covering his view. My father didn't see it, none of the 900 entrants and many more spectators saw it.

But I think I felt it, picked up the CB and said "think I double hit that one, man".

I wanted to win that set, badly. But not badly enough to challenge my own integrity.
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
Damn, and there it is. :cool:

At the SBE one year, I'm shooting a 6 ball, leaned over. It's a close-together shot near the rail, and when I stroke it.... I feel the CB come back and just brush my tip again.

My opponent didn't see it, my back was covering his view. My father didn't see it, none of the 900 entrants and many more spectators saw it.

But I think I felt it, picked up the CB and said "think I double hit that one, man".

I wanted to win that set, badly. But not badly enough to challenge my own integrity.
I was playing for the hot seat against one of my friends from a nearby town in a tournament down here with a 1k plus first prize. It was hill hill 8 ball and he played safe. I had to kick at my ball down a rail past the 8 ball. He was sitting with his lady at a table and didn't have a good view. I shot and the cue ball brushed the 8 ball ever so slightly and then hit my ball and came to a rest where he had no escape. I let him walk up to the table and appreciate how screwed he was for a minute just to see his face when he realized what reality was compared to how it looked. Then I told him I fouled and he took ball in hand and ran out. He won the event. Either you have integrity or you're scum, there is no middle ground.

Every time I see him he smiles and mentions it. Not sure if he would have done the same or not but it doesn't matter.

I think this was Linn's biggest win in his long playing days as well. It might have been mine had I been willing to cheat for it.

Petty.JPG
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
This situation has been discussed many times on here before. You’ll get a variety of opinions. If my opponent is getting ready to hit the wrong ball and I see it happening in time enough to stop them, I will. They appreciate it, they remember, and they are more likely to return the favor at some point in the future. To me it’s just the right thing to do.

However, if my opponent chooses not to do it, I can live with that as they are not obligated to do so. What bothers me more, is after calling the foul, they claim that they would have stopped you if they had realized in time what you were doing. Not always, but usually that is BS - they see exactly what you are doing and they always fail to speak up until just after you shoot. They try to claim their integrity, but it’s very clear that winning at all costs is what is important to them.

Just take your ball-in-hand and keep your mouth shut with your excuses as to why you didn’t stop me from shooting the wrong ball.

I have done this and it was the last time I warned someone. When I warned them that they were about to shoot the wrong ball they informed me that they were lining up the next shot. All I could say was "oh"
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing for the hot seat against one of my friends from a nearby town in a tournament down here with a 1k plus first prize. It was hill hill 8 ball and he played safe. I had to kick at my ball down a rail past the 8 ball. He was sitting with his lady at a table and didn't have a good view. I shot and the cue ball brushed the 8 ball ever so slightly and then hit my ball and came to a rest where he had no escape. I let him walk up to the table and appreciate how screwed he was for a minute just to see his face when he realized what reality was compared to how it looked. Then I told him I fouled and he took ball in hand and ran out. He won the event. Either you have integrity or you're scum, there is no middle ground.

Every time I see him he smiles and mentions it. Not sure if he would have done the same or not but it doesn't matter.

I think this was Linn's biggest win in his long playing days as well. It might have been mine had I been willing to cheat for it.

View attachment 588714
If you had stayed silent and if you won, the kind of person you are, it would have weighed on you and detracted from your victory and you might have taken that secret to your grave. I admire your integrity. Obviously there are others that wouldn’t have thought twice about it.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I was in a situation that I wasnt sure what call to make. I was just spectating between matches at our state tournament where 1 shooter had just broke and scratched. I noticed that the 8 ball was pocketed on the break but neither the breaker or the incoming player noticed. I was in a quandary as to whether I should tell either one, its not a penalty because the 8 spots up and its not an advantage to the incoming player. In the end I told the breaker the 8 was off of the table and he informed his opponent before he took the next shot.
 

JuanM

Active member
in a tournament had someone get mildly snotty with me for not stopping them from shooting the 5 instead of the 4
not somebody i know either

truth is i didnt even realize what they had done until i walked up to the table after they missed the 5
 

MmmSharp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I will always call my own fouls, and if it is close I will ask for a ref to watch. Our hall owner is a certified BCA ref, and has done reffing in Vegas when he is there. He will come over and ref for anyone in the hall even on a just for fun set. mm self respect and integrity is worth more to me than a few bucks.

I typically only play with folks i know and like. I will often let my opponent know their potential error ahead of time. I suppose it is more habit than anything, since i use to play with someone who always drank too much, and would always make mistakes. it was easier to correct them than win every game by default. Now I do it on instinct.

what it boils down to for me is :
if you know you fouled, i think you should call yourself. if you deliberately cheat and are known for not calling your own fouls i probably would avoid playing a rack.​

if you see your opponent is about to foul, well, that is all situational. you are not responsible for them, but perhaps you know they are a new player, or you like them as a person so you decide to help them out.​
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I will always call my own fouls, and if it is close I will ask for a ref to watch. Our hall owner is a certified BCA ref, and has done reffing in Vegas when he is there. He will come over and ref for anyone in the hall even on a just for fun set. mm self respect and integrity is worth more to me than a few bucks.

I typically only play with folks i know and like. I will often let my opponent know their potential error ahead of time. I suppose it is more habit than anything, since i use to play with someone who always drank too much, and would always make mistakes. it was easier to correct them than win every game by default. Now I do it on instinct.

what it boils down to for me is :
if you know you fouled, i think you should call yourself. if you deliberately cheat and are known for not calling your own fouls i probably would avoid playing a rack.​

if you see your opponent is about to foul, well, that is all situational. you are not responsible for them, but perhaps you know they are a new player, or you like them as a person so you decide to help them out.​
Yes, potential double hits on two balls close to each other it is the most likely found that many players commit, even players that have been playing the game for many years. You know they are going to foul before they even hit it, but it’s debatable as to whether you should let them know before they shoot.

After they shoot, if you call them on it, they don’t really understand why. Even when you explain it to them, they may think you are taking advantage of them, but you are not doing them any favors by saying nothing if you’re playing in a tournament or league situation. It’s something they need to learn and someone else will be calling them for the foul in the future when they do it, So the sooner they can learn it, the better.
 

MmmSharp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, potential double hits on two balls close to each other it is the most likely found that many players commit, even players that have been playing the game for many years. You know they are going to foul before they even hit it, but it’s debatable as to whether you should let them know before they shoot.

After they shoot, if you call them on it, they don’t really understand why. Even when you explain it to them, they may think you are taking advantage of them, but you are not doing them any favors by saying nothing if you’re playing in a tournament or league situation. It’s something they need to learn and someone else will be calling them for the foul in the future when they do it, So the sooner they can learn it, the better.
that exact scenario happens all the time in league to me. I am friends with the league manager and they will pair me with people who are new and need a little guidance on scenarios like that. I will call a time out, and have the new player talk to the ref or manger have the double hit explained to them. i have done that multiple times for new players.

Not to sound cocky, but I expect anyone on this forum that is explaining that rule to a new player is likely still going to win the match. it is a courtesy move that helps the new player as a learning experience, and doesn't hurt your own game. i find that sort of interaction is what keeps new players from quitting.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
always good to help a new player out. never call fouls on them that are not obvious fouls unless you told them before the shot it was going to be a foul. and that is your job anyway.
as said you are going to win anyway against them.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
always good to help a new player out. never call fouls on them that are not obvious fouls unless you told them before the shot it was going to be a foul. and that is your job anyway.
as said you are going to win anyway against them.
If it’s an accurately handicapped tournament, the weaker player always has a chance, although I agree that the better player always has the advantage, as he knows how to play defense.

I’ve seen it all over the years as our TD in our Weekly handicapped tournaments between two players with huge handicap differences. I’ve seen the better player 3-foul out a female beginner player. They have a right to try to win any way they can, but I was not too pleased and I let them know it.
 

FeelDaShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just trying to get the pulse of the community.

Playing in a league singles regional qualifier. Top bracket (NAPA 100+). I'm nervous and down 2-0 race to 6, been in my chair since racking game 1. Get to the table, run 2 thru 5 and for some reason didn't see the 6. My pattern just didn't include it. I shot the 7 out of sequence - my opponent immediately calls a foul, since he standing near the table watching.

I'm not judging , just curious as to how many folks would have said something before I shot?
If you allow your opponent to mistakenly shoot the wrong ball you're a scumbag who only cares about winning, regardless of how it happens. You might as well steal your opponents cue before the match too. Absolutely zero sportsmanship.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you allow your opponent to mistakenly shoot the wrong ball you're a scumbag who only cares about winning, regardless of how it happens. You might as well steal your opponents cue before the match too. Absolutely zero sportsmanship.
I agree, but it appears that we are in the minority as far as all of those who have posted on this question in this thread.
 
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