Sportmanship question (let me put on my flack jacket....)

FeelDaShot said:
If you allow your opponent to mistakenly shoot the wrong ball you're a scumbag who only cares about winning, regardless of how it happens. You might as well steal your opponents cue before the match too. Absolutely zero sportsmanship.
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From the other side, if you are an opponent that shoots the wrong ball you are a moron and may as well just walk into walls and slobber on the table. It's a nice thing to do but it's not close to being a scumbag if someone does not. Are you against 3 foul rules also since it makes the other player feel bad and you can win by playing a chickenshit game as some would call it? An opponent is in no way obligated to point out your mistakes or vice versa.

This is a match where the team is counting on the win to advance. If you help the opponent you are effectively going against what is best for your team. The other player and his team-mates should do the right thing also and not shoot the wrong ball or call a time out before that happens.

I don't see a lot of NASCAR drivers pulling over to let someone pass them, and those NBA and NFL players sure are jealous of who is holding the ball.
 
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FeelDaShot said:
If you allow your opponent to mistakenly shoot the wrong ball you're a scumbag who only cares about winning, regardless of how it happens. You might as well steal your opponents cue before the match too. Absolutely zero sportsmanship.
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What if your opponent is about to shoot a shot that you know will scratch? Do you jump out of your chair to stop them?
 
Short of some kind of unusual disturbance in the force that would cause any normal person to lose concentration, hell no. It's the championships. But, for example, if someone suddenly yelled, "Anybody move I'll blow your *&@! head off", then, yes, I'd say something.

One option is to beat him to the punch and pull the fire alarm when the match starts getting out of hand.
 
orion21 said:
Just trying to get the pulse of the community.

Playing in a league singles regional qualifier. Top bracket (NAPA 100+). I'm nervous and down 2-0 race to 6, been in my chair since racking game 1. Get to the table, run 2 thru 5 and for some reason didn't see the 6. My pattern just didn't include it. I shot the 7 out of sequence - my opponent immediately calls a foul, since he standing near the table watching.

I'm not judging , just curious as to how many folks would have said something before I shot?
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You realise you can actually say every foul you made is your opponent's fault. Like your opponent did not tell you to draw the ball and you scratched, did not tell where to aim the kick so you missed and fouled, did not tell you rail first not possible and you fouled :ROFLMAO:
 
Pool is a mental game.
I'd let them shoot it and call the foul. If they are like me they'll be beating themselves up mentally for a few shots after that and hand me the game.
Everyone here has likely lost a game due to a mental error, it hurts but it is part of the game.
 
hang-the-9 said:
From the other side, if you are an opponent that shoots the wrong ball you are a moron and may as well just walk into walls and slobber on the table. It's a nice thing to do but it's not close to being a scumbag if someone does not. Are you against 3 foul rules also since it makes the other player feel bad and you can win by playing a chickenshit game as some would call it? An opponent is in no way obligated to point out your mistakes or vice versa.

This is a match where the team is counting on the win to advance. If you help the opponent you are effectively going against what is best for your team. The other player and his team-mates should do the right thing also and not shoot the wrong ball or call a time out before that happens.

I don't see a lot of NASCAR drivers pulling over to let someone pass them, and those NBA and NFL players sure are jealous of who is holding the ball.
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Who cares if your opponent is a moron...that doesn't make your scumbag behavior anymore acceptable.

No, I'm not against the 3 foul rule. That's a legit, honest, recognized winning strategy. Horrible comparison.

Everyone likes to win. But good hearted players want to beat you by honestly playing better. They don't jump for joy when their opponent scratches on the winning 9 ball and they sure as shit warn you when you're clearly lining up on the wrong ball. It's the Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

Now, let me ask you some ridiculous questions. Let's say you just lost $100 to an opponent. He puts the money away and it falls out of his bag as he walks away from the table. Do you pick it up and put it in your pocket? Because afterall, the rules don't say you have to warn people of their mistakes. No need to answer - just straighten up and don't be an A-hole anymore.
 
First, I assume we are talking about a competitive matchup, with real competitive emotions involved. If it’s just a friendly, who cares either way what happens.

A story from a long time ago. After my opponent played safe and left me locked up, I barely missed on a slow rolling three-rail kick, giving him ball-in-hand. I said ball-in-hand, as he jumped up to approach the table and he did not acknowledge my statement. He left the cue ball where it was and began calculating his move. After about 30 seconds I said, hey bill, just making sure you know it’s bih. He gave me a glare and said, yeah I know. He looked back at the table and then started mumbling about me breaking his concentration. He walked back to his chair, towels down and approached the table again. He wholly thought I was sharking him. He even complained about it after the match. Since that time, I rarely say anything to my opponent after he has approached the table. And I don’t feel like a scumbag because of it.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
-I always call fouls on myself
-I always suggest my opponent calls a third party to watch a shot I'm about to attempt if it's close
-I always tell players when they've dropped money
-In competition, I never tell players how to get out the snookers they're in
-In competition, I never tell players how to play a pattern to beat me
-In competition, I never tell players to take an extra moment to calm themselves before proceding
-In competition, I will let the player do whatever 'legal' thing they can to beat me

In competition it's not just a game of skill. It's also a game of wits and mental stamina. If I'm playing in solo competiton, and the mood hits me I'll warn a player about to play something out of turn. In a team format I never will.

I sleep like a baby
 
gregcantrall said:
What if someone is about to snag their beer? And last call was 5 minutes ago!! And they are already down on the shot!
Life is full of dilemma!?!
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A great young player that seemed to have huge potential, Marvin Manalo, turned to a life of crime and sin after a very questionable call. With all balls very close and the object ball close to the rail he claimed he rubbed his ball going into the rail, a legal shot. The ref thought he had missed his ball, hitting it coming off the rail. The ball was so close to the rail that it could have reacted just the same in either circumstance. Due to video shot at 30 frames a second and "bloom" video might have been deceptive in deciding this. I have always thought that Marvin might not have turned to a life of politics were it not for this one shot in front of the world when he felt like his honor had been questioned. Without honor, why not politics?

Hu
 
FeelDaShot said:
Who cares if your opponent is a moron...that doesn't make your scumbag behavior anymore acceptable.

No, I'm not against the 3 foul rule. That's a legit, honest, recognized winning strategy. Horrible comparison.

Everyone likes to win. But good hearted players want to beat you by honestly playing better. They don't jump for joy when their opponent scratches on the winning 9 ball and they sure as shit warn you when you're clearly lining up on the wrong ball. It's the Golden Rule: "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

Now, let me ask you some ridiculous questions. Let's say you just lost $100 to an opponent. He puts the money away and it falls out of his bag as he walks away from the table. Do you pick it up and put it in your pocket? Because afterall, the rules don't say you have to warn people of their mistakes. No need to answer - just straighten up and don't be an A-hole anymore.
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3 foul rule is badmouthed by a lot of players when you use it, and even a single safe by some is considered bad sport. It is a very valid comparison and is as equally in the rules as not being obligated to tell your opponent he is going to make a mistake. Outside interference is not allowed, unless there are specific coaching rules for a league. A ref watching the game not saying anything must be the most a-hole person ever.

Of course I would let the person know they dropped their money, it's not during a game we are both equally trying to win. I would also tell someone their gas cap is open and put in a couple of bucks to help someone if they were short on their grocery money. But if I made a bet that someone can't do something, or can do something, I am not going to help them accomplish whatever we bet on.

And in 90% of matches I would tell the guy he is about to shoot the wrong ball, we all have. Just not when it's a big match and there is a team behind me. I may be 100% obligated to call a foul on myself if I knew I fouled, but I am 100% not obligated to tell my opponent he is about to foul. As others have said, you going to tell them the shot looks like a scratch, or that shooting another ball will help them run out easier, or if the balls are close together they may foul with a double-hit? If you know there is going to be a foul, at what point do you stop helping your opponent? Heck, I've loaned a jump cue to my opponent when they needed one to use against me LOL that goes pretty far in being a good sport I would say.

Even a ref when asked directly can't tell a player how to avoid a rule violation, they can only say what the rule is and then watch them do the shot.
 
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FeelDaShot said:
If you allow your opponent to mistakenly shoot the wrong ball you're a scumbag who only cares about winning, regardless of how it happens. You might as well steal your opponents cue before the match too. Absolutely zero sportsmanship.
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I don’t like your definition of sportsmanship at all. Pool, to me, is a war game...I play it with the knight’s code....
...”No quarter asked for or given”....I don’t even want to play with people who call that cheating.
if you need help from your opponent for you to win, you might want to stay away from me also.

and I call my own fouls...and it’s not just situational ethics, I’ve done it for serious money.
 
Scratch85 said:
First, I assume we are talking about a competitive matchup, with real competitive emotions involved. If it’s just a friendly, who cares either way what happens.

A story from a long time ago. After my opponent played safe and left me locked up, I barely missed on a slow rolling three-rail kick, giving him ball-in-hand. I said ball-in-hand, as he jumped up to approach the table and he did not acknowledge my statement. He left the cue ball where it was and began calculating his move. After about 30 seconds I said, hey bill, just making sure you know it’s bih. He gave me a glare and said, yeah I know. He looked back at the table and then started mumbling about me breaking his concentration. He walked back to his chair, towels down and approached the table again. He wholly thought I was sharking him. He even complained about it after the match. Since that time, I rarely say anything to my opponent after he has approached the table. And I don’t feel like a scumbag because of it.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
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I've seen a couple situations like this unfold and it's very unfortunate, but it's an unfortunate reality. Like I think someone else mentioned, I've also tried to warn someone where I thought they were about to shoot the wrong ball and after I said something, it turned out my opponent was about 4 shots ahead, just lining up a safe or something. Even informing my opponent I would like to get a ref for the next shot, if they shoot the shot they are looking at or I think they are going to shoot, is touchy. In my experience, even if you are real polite about it, if the person is in a bad head space because they just hooked themselves or something, they may be grumpy about it. Regardless, in some situations you have to call one over if you think they aren't going to do it or request it like some do.

So to sum it up, I wholeheartedly agree about not saying anything or approaching the table unless absolutely necessary. I've shot the wrong ball in 8ball and 9ball, even in big moments more times than I can count. I've never once felt it was my opponents fault. Hell, one time in a league match apparently mid game I switched from stripes to solids and my opponent didn't notice and we played the game out like that. Apparently, everyone on both teams knew, but felt they couldn't tell us, so they just let us finish the game out and score it as it was when we finished. No one took issue with it and it made for a good laugh. The thing is, I wasn't even surprised. I'm sure this was more of me drinking beer and talking or something and not paying attention. Sometimes I'm not paying good enough attention and other times in rotation, if I'm really locked in, sometimes I just space a ball out on the table. I was playing Shane McMinn at a big 9ball tourney in a race to 7, it was 5-5 and I was at the table running out. I was about halfway through the rack and just made a real nice position shot with inside spin going a couple rails and weaving between balls. After the shot, Shane said, did you shot the 8 ball or whatever it was and I said, yes I think so. Then he pointed at what should have been my next ball and I shrugged my shoulders and he took ball in hand. Not his fault, even if he knew or thought I was lining up for the wrong ball. This case was more of me being locked in too and not a case of me not paying attention. If I remember right, the previous rack was an early combo, so we had high balls on the table too and the 13ball or something was probably the 9ball in this game. So I just spaced a ball. I lost a little sleep over it since he ran like 3 or 4 balls and won the game and then broke and ran, but it happens sometimes. I shot the wrong ball once in a big regional event too through the ACUI, but did end up winning that match so it didn't cost me. My fault in all these situations and only my fault.
 
Rules are rule and must be followed. We must be able to rely on each other to follow them. Without a set of rules there is no game. If you don't like the rules, either don't play the game or find someone who will agree to play the way you want to.
 
Another way to look at it is that in a friendly game it is even more important to not warn your opponent and let him foul. He needs to learn how to count and it is better for him to learn on the cheap.
 
All this BS about rules takes the fun out of the game.

Being honest, I like playing pool whether or not I win.

It's like chess to me. I used to play chess with a guy that kicked my butt 30 times to my single win. We played hundreds of games and I rarely won.
 
pt109 said:
I don’t like your definition of sportsmanship at all. Pool, to me, is a war game...I play it with the knight’s code....
...”No quarter asked for or given”....I don’t even want to play with people who call that cheating.
if you need help from your opponent for you to win, you might want to stay away from me also.

and I call my own fouls...and it’s not just situational ethics, I’ve done it for serious money.
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Pool is literally a war game. Most games from the early period were. You played these games to practice tactics and strategy. The pressure in the game might help a bit when it was time to pick up a sword or lance too.

I just laugh with someone when they don't warn me I am making a mistake. I have won quite a few pistol matches of different types. I have lost two pistol matches by doing something dumb on the very last shot. Guess which two matches and shots I can remember to the last detail! I had a perfect score going in snooker when I drilled the pocket dead center with the five ball and it hopped back out. I was so focused on shape that I didn't even notice the five had hopped out until I was down on the six and the five was a foot from my bridge. I have made all the mistakes most have in pool, maybe a few more. "Stuff happens", hopefully it didn't take food off the table. One thing you can bank on, I never blamed somebody else for my mistakes. Some posts from others, definitely NOT you, make me think that they would. No quarter asked or given covers it well. Like you, I might give a little quarter if I am in the mood but I feel no obligation to and I definitely don't expect any! I was playing an old scuffer that was legally blind. He won a game. "You didn't let me win on purpose did you? I would be mad if you let me win!"

Hu
 
Inferno said:
All this BS about rules takes the fun out of the game.

Being honest, I like playing pool whether or not I win.

It's like chess to me. I used to play chess with a guy that kicked my butt 30 times to my single win. We played hundreds of games and I rarely won.
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Well....you have to have rules or the game of pool could turn into something like Caveman Basketball where everything is allowed. And, if there are rules they should be followed or what's the point of having rules to begin with.

This thread has morphed into two separate discussions/scenarios. It started life as a thread about a guy that was about to shoot the wrong ball (and whether or not the opponent should warn him) and splintered off into discussions about whether or not we should call our own fouls when we commit one. Although similar in nature...two separate discussions.

Getting back to the OP's inquiry, it has never been written in ANY rule set that you must tell your opponent when they are about to shoot the wrong ball. So a person who didn't warn their opponent has 100% adhered to the rules by not doing so. I don't understand why a person not warning their opponent would not have integrity or be considered a scumbag. In fact, I find it ridiculous that someone would even think like this. It is ALL 100% on the shooter to manage his/her own game.

If you choose to warn your opponent....that is good on you. You are indeed a good person. If you choose not to warn your opponent.... that is NOT bad on you, and you are NOT a bad person.

That said, in the past I always warned my opponent, as would MOST of the players that played on my teams would also. But years gone by has me now thinking there may/will be situations down the road where I may not warn my opponent. It will now all depend on specific situations, and in a team setting I'd need the blessing of all my teammates before I did so. I have much more responsibility to my team than I do my opponent or his/her team. I play by the rules and should never be ostracized for doing so.

Let me leave this discussion with this analogy: An NFL running back is running a sweep to the outside and is gang tackled several yards downfield. In the process of going to the ground he loses the football. A linebacker from the defensive squad picks up the ball and races toward and crosses the wrong end zone where he is tackled for a safety. He ran the wrong way. Let me ask....How many offensive players chasing that linebacker or on the offensive sideline would have yelled at that player to warn him that he was running the wrong way? And of course they wouldn't, so do they have no integrity or are they scumbags? Just sayin'.

Maniac
 
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