Sportmanship question (let me put on my flack jacket....)

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
I watched a player watch his opponent shot the wrong ball in a league 8ball match. Instead of calling the foul right away he let the player continue to shoot the wrong balls until all the problems were gone. I had no problem with him not letting the player know right away but felt it was a bit unsportsmanlike to let him continue shooting
My understanding is that most rules indicate that after the second wrong ball that a player shoots, if his opponent doesn't call a foul after the first time it occurs, that the player now actually HAS those other set of balls now. Someone else can set the record straight if this is incorrect.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
If I am absolutely certain the other player is fixing to make a dumbcluck move I will probably warn him. A lot more likely to warn people I know than strangers on the off chance they are doing something I don't understand from the chair.

The last person I saw shoot a ball out of order was a well respected shortstop. He was on the table next to the TV table and his opponent had wandered off for some reason during his run. I was idly watching him since he had a routine breakout on a bar table. When he made no effort to break the cluster I was really curious. He shot a ball several inches from the next ball. Now he really has my attention! What is he going to do when he realizes he still has that lower ball on the table? He smoothly ran a couple more balls then the lower ball without batting an eye. I wondered how many times he had done this or if he might be color blind.

Pool is ultimately a gentleman's or lady's game. While the rules sometimes state that your opponent calls fouls they also often state that you are to remain in your chair when the other player is shooting. Sometimes this creates a conflict, you can't see the shot from your chair. If a player doesn't call an obvious foul on themselves after that I will get up to watch shots I can't see from the chair that might be fouled on. Can't have it both ways! Over ninety percent of people call their own fouls when they see them not counting a cue ball touch with a tip. Almost everyone ignores a touch that doesn't move the cue ball sometimes. If they are locked onto an object ball well up table they may not know they did it.

I don't get mad if someone doesn't stop me from making a mistake, not their place. On the other hand, if I foul when the rules are the opponent is responsible to call a foul, I will still call my own fouls since I want the opponent to stay in the chair. Occasionally I will get them out of their chair to call a close hit it is going to be hard or impossible for me to see.

I try to meet my opponent halfway, or a bit more. I have no problem with somebody being a stickler for the rules, I have no problem with someone calling their own fouls when the rules say for me to. When someone blatantly fouls then denies doing it things can get ugly. In other times when I didn't care if I got in a fight or not I have seen many times when the shooter denied an obvious foul then fell back on the shooter being the one with final say. I have then even more blatantly fouled myself. When my opponent exploded out of his chair I would call the hit good and remind them that the shooter has final say. The game has degenerated until it isn't pool at that point but sometimes in a tournament or gambling match with a stranger "stuff happens".

If you want your opponent to stay in their chair when you are shooting, call your own fouls regardless of if the tournament states that the opponent calls fouls. If you don't call your own fouls don't whine when your opponent positions themselves to see a tricky shot even if they are in your field of view or even crowding the shot a bit in some circumstances. I don't consider someone unethical in the least when they are playing by the rules, opponent calls the foul. I am the one not following the rules when I call my own in such events. I think calling your own is much more practical but I am a "when in Rome" kind of guy too.

As I hope this long ramble makes clear, I don't fault either viewpoint. However, don't expect me to be the referee and sit in my chair too!

Hu
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
If I am absolutely certain the other player is fixing to make a dumbcluck move I will probably warn him. A lot more likely to warn people I know than strangers on the off chance they are doing something I don't understand from the chair.

The last person I saw shoot a ball out of order was a well respected shortstop. He was on the table next to the TV table and his opponent had wandered off for some reason during his run. I was idly watching him since he had a routine breakout on a bar table. When he made no effort to break the cluster I was really curious. He shot a ball several inches from the next ball. Now he really has my attention! What is he going to do when he realizes he still has that lower ball on the table? He smoothly ran a couple more balls then the lower ball without batting an eye. I wondered how many times he had done this or if he might be color blind.

Pool is ultimately a gentleman's or lady's game. While the rules sometimes state that your opponent calls fouls they also often state that you are to remain in your chair when the other player is shooting. Sometimes this creates a conflict, you can't see the shot from your chair. If a player doesn't call an obvious foul on themselves after that I will get up to watch shots I can't see from the chair that might be fouled on. Can't have it both ways! Over ninety percent of people call their own fouls when they see them not counting a cue ball touch with a tip. Almost everyone ignores a touch that doesn't move the cue ball sometimes. If they are locked onto an object ball well up table they may not know they did it.

I don't get mad if someone doesn't stop me from making a mistake, not their place. On the other hand, if I foul when the rules are the opponent is responsible to call a foul, I will still call my own fouls since I want the opponent to stay in the chair. Occasionally I will get them out of their chair to call a close hit it is going to be hard or impossible for me to see.

I try to meet my opponent halfway, or a bit more. I have no problem with somebody being a stickler for the rules, I have no problem with someone calling their own fouls when the rules say for me to. When someone blatantly fouls then denies doing it things can get ugly. In other times when I didn't care if I got in a fight or not I have seen many times when the shooter denied an obvious foul then fell back on the shooter being the one with final say. I have then even more blatantly fouled myself. When my opponent exploded out of his chair I would call the hit good and remind them that the shooter has final say. The game has degenerated until it isn't pool at that point but sometimes in a tournament or gambling match with a stranger "stuff happens".

If you want your opponent to stay in their chair when you are shooting, call your own fouls regardless of if the tournament states that the opponent calls fouls. If you don't call your own fouls don't whine when your opponent positions themselves to see a tricky shot even if they are in your field of view or even crowding the shot a bit in some circumstances. I don't consider someone unethical in the least when they are playing by the rules, opponent calls the foul. I am the one not following the rules when I call my own in such events. I think calling your own is much more practical but I am a "when in Rome" kind of guy too.

As I hope this long ramble makes clear, I don't fault either viewpoint. However, don't expect me to be the referee and sit in my chair too!

Hu
You made some REALLY good points. But like in a situation that occurred with me, sometimes the shot doesn't look like it is a really close situation, so you wouldn't call your opponent over to watch. Then you slow roll a cue ball and the cue ball wonders off a little. I think that there will always be cases when it's just not clear cut if you have fouled or not, and if your opponent doesn't call it, you might just continue on and win a game that you shouldn't have. Luckily, it's a fairly rare case when the shooter really isn't sure if they fouled or not.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I watched a player watch his opponent shot the wrong ball in a league 8ball match. Instead of calling the foul right away he let the player continue to shoot the wrong balls until all the problems were gone. I had no problem with him not letting the player know right away but felt it was a bit unsportsmanlike to let him continue shooting
I saw this happen one time too. Problem was....it was a friend of mine that pulled this BS.

I lost quite a bit of respect for him after that move, especially since it wasn't nothing but an APA league match in an in-house league where everybody knew everybody.

Maniac
 

Inferno

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
See? All this talk about the rules, fouls, etc is why I don't play a league.

I will, almost always, tell someone they are about to shoot the wrong ball. It's part of the "teacher" in me.
I'm far from a professional coach but as in bowling it is in billiards. I will help players become stronger by passing what knowledge I have onto a weaker player.
"serious" pool players aren't fun to hang with. It's much more fun to stop a game in the middle, rerack and start fresh when an error happens. Done it hundreds of times.
 

Inferno

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How about a different sportsmanship question?

This actually happened to me.

One of the very rare times I was ever in a pool tournament. It was a small affair. Everyone shot on the same table and it was a single elimination match.
I'm not even sure of what it's called but it went like this.

Everyone got paired up to shoot. If you won your match, you moved to the next tier. If you lost, you were done. Each match was 2 out of three.
There were some good players. I won't lie about that.
We started with 16 players (15 really but one was a bye from a draw of the first round elimination)
I won my matchups.
I get to the final match and win the first one with my opponent fouling out. I won the second match and would have been declared the winner. Unfortunately, the scorer was half in the bag by the time the final match was being played and scored the first match to my opponent.
My opponent was the best friend of the scorer.
Well, an argument ensued, obviously. My opponent wouldn't say he lost the first game. He also wouldn't say he won it. RED FLAG THERE.
Bottom line is we had to play a third game. I was so pissed off at that point that I totally lost the game.

The scorer used that third game as "proof" that I lost the first one.

Only two people were paying attention to the first game and they both remembered me winning on the foul.

This was the last tournament I ever played. I don't even want to say how many years ago that was.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Over ninety percent of people call their own fouls when they see them not counting a cue ball touch with a tip. Almost everyone ignores a touch that doesn't move the cue ball sometimes. If they are locked onto an object ball well up table they may not know they did it.
Hu
Why would you not feel a need to call a foul on yourself when you inadvertently touch the cue ball with your tip when preparing to shoot? I disagree - you almost always know when you do it.

Not calling that foul on yourself is no different than not calling any other foul you commit on yourself. Whether or not you think your opponent saw it should have absolutely no bearing on whether you call the foul on yourself. It’s called integrity.

Do you really thinks it’s fair to put your opponent in the position of having to stop and question you as to whether you touched the cue ball? And if they do, what are you going to say? Lie that you didn’t touch it or admit that you did but you weren’t honest enough to call it on yourself?
 
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Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
How about a different sportsmanship question?

This actually happened to me.

One of the very rare times I was ever in a pool tournament. It was a small affair. Everyone shot on the same table and it was a single elimination match.
I'm not even sure of what it's called but it went like this.

Everyone got paired up to shoot. If you won your match, you moved to the next tier. If you lost, you were done. Each match was 2 out of three.
There were some good players. I won't lie about that.
We started with 16 players (15 really but one was a bye from a draw of the first round elimination)
I won my matchups.
I get to the final match and win the first one with my opponent fouling out. I won the second match and would have been declared the winner. Unfortunately, the scorer was half in the bag by the time the final match was being played and scored the first match to my opponent.
My opponent was the best friend of the scorer.
Well, an argument ensued, obviously. My opponent wouldn't say he lost the first game. He also wouldn't say he won it. RED FLAG THERE.
Bottom line is we had to play a third game. I was so pissed off at that point that I totally lost the game.

The scorer used that third game as "proof" that I lost the first one.

Only two people were paying attention to the first game and they both remembered me winning on the foul.

This was the last tournament I ever played. I don't even want to say how many years ago that was.
That is pretty bad by your opponent. Knowingly trying to get away with a free win. I had a similar situation in the finals in a tournament. After I won a game, I proclaimed that I was up 2-1. The people running the tournament didn't correct me right away and they had a funny look on their faces. They were also in the same family as the guy I was playing. Eventually, someone said that I was up 2-0 instead, and play continued. So I "almost" blew it by not knowing the correct score and they "almost" let me screw myself by not telling me the correct score. The score was being kept by the people running the tournament in this case, no coins were being moved.

And if someone asks how I could think that my opponent had won a game, it's because I had to double-dip him in the finals. We had already played one match and he had won a game in that match. I ended-up beating him 3-1 and 3-0. He happened to be the 3rd best player in this area. But on Monday night leagues, he's in second in the league (was first), but it's because he plays first in the order every week and plays all of the other teams weakest players. (That old chestnut again...LOL).
 
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Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
If it's just a normal league night and my opponent is a lower level player AND a decent guy, I'll tell him, if he is my skill level or higher, shhh...

Big tourney with the opportunity to advance - I'd keep my mouth shut and fidget in my chair waiting to jump the moment he shot the wrong ball.

There's a time and a place to be helpful and there's a time and place to follow the rules. I've done it a few times (haven't we all) and I've been told before hand and I've been told after the fact - each of them were my own fault and in NO case did I expect my opponent to tell me.

It's just part of the game.
 

Chili Palmer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why would you not feel a need to call a foul on yourself when you inadvertently touch the cue ball with your tip when preparing to shoot? I disagree - you almost always know when you do it.

Not calling that foul on yourself is no different than not calling any other foul you commit on yourself. Whether or not you think your opponent saw it should have absolutely no bearing on whether you call the foul on yourself. It’s called integrity.

Do you really thinks it’s fair to put your opponent in the position of having to stop and question you as to whether you touched the cue ball? And if they do, what are you going to say? Lie that you didn’t touch it or admit that you did but you weren’t honest enough to call it on yourself?

Agreed. I can't ever remember a time I knowingly fouled and didn't alert my opponent.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
The bottom line is "If you cheat to win, you didn't win. The cheat won".

It's a game. There will be other games. Win or lose or draw, the game is over. Let the ego take a back seat to sportsmanship.
Pretty biased point of view...you call playing by the rules cheating?
i rarely play 8-ball....I played in a tournament where if your opponent scratches on the break, you have to shoot from the kitchen. So after he scratches, I set the cue ball down at the other end (like a 9-ball player would).....
...I batted the cue ball to him...he was shocked..I told him him I don’t want to win when my opponent has to help me.
...you guys talk about morals?...I got them too
 

Inferno

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty biased point of view...you call playing by the rules cheating?
i rarely play 8-ball....I played in a tournament where if your opponent scratches on the break, you have to shoot from the kitchen. So after he scratches, I set the cue ball down at the other end (like a 9-ball player would).....
...I batted the cue ball to him...he was shocked..I told him him I don’t want to win when my opponent has to help me.
...you guys talk about morals?...I got them too
OK, call it a loophole win then.

"Winning at all costs" isn't sportsmanlike.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
How about a different sportsmanship question?

This actually happened to me.

One of the very rare times I was ever in a pool tournament. It was a small affair. Everyone shot on the same table and it was a single elimination match.
I'm not even sure of what it's called but it went like this.

Everyone got paired up to shoot. If you won your match, you moved to the next tier. If you lost, you were done. Each match was 2 out of three.
There were some good players. I won't lie about that.
We started with 16 players (15 really but one was a bye from a draw of the first round elimination)
I won my matchups.
I get to the final match and win the first one with my opponent fouling out. I won the second match and would have been declared the winner. Unfortunately, the scorer was half in the bag by the time the final match was being played and scored the first match to my opponent.
My opponent was the best friend of the scorer.
Well, an argument ensued, obviously. My opponent wouldn't say he lost the first game. He also wouldn't say he won it. RED FLAG THERE.
Bottom line is we had to play a third game. I was so pissed off at that point that I totally lost the game.

The scorer used that third game as "proof" that I lost the first one.

Only two people were paying attention to the first game and they both remembered me winning on the foul.

This was the last tournament I ever played. I don't even want to say how many years ago that was.
I would’ve taken my cue apart...by playing the last game, you’re conceding their ruling.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
OK, call it a loophole win then.

"Winning at all costs" isn't sportsmanlike.
If you play by the rules, two dangerous men who don’t like each other can compete.
many of you guys that think otherwise will treat a friend better than a stranger...
....and that is not fair
 

Inferno

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would’ve taken my cue apart...by playing the last game, you’re conceding their ruling.
Funny you said that. I was in the process of taking my cue apart when they asked why I wasn't playing the "final" game.
There was nothing to be gained by holding my ground. The purpose of the tournament was to gather recruits for a non-profit. I was on the board of directors for the non-profit so throwing a tantrum wasn't in the best interest of the cause.
There was also some money involved as the prize. That pissed me off a little.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
Funny you said that. I was in the process of taking my cue apart when they asked why I wasn't playing the "final" game.
There was nothing to be gained by holding my ground. The purpose of the tournament was to gather recruits for a non-profit. I was on the board of directors for the non-profit so throwing a tantrum wasn't in the best interest of the cause.
There was also some money involved as the prize. That pissed me off a little.
My point of view is that if you submit to arbitrary measures, you are not helping the situation...
you are helping it fall apart....point...you stopped playing in that thing
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
I can't recall a time when I have shot the wrong ball but my various opponents have done it countless times. This is one aspect of the mental game that I am apparently better than average at. Why would I diminish this when I am not better than average in so many other ways?
 

JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
Why would you not feel a need to call a foul on yourself when you inadvertently touch the cue ball with your tip when preparing to shoot? I disagree - you almost always know when you do it.

Not calling that foul on yourself is no different than not calling any other foul you commit on yourself. Whether or not you think your opponent saw it should have absolutely no bearing on whether you call the foul on yourself. It’s called integrity.

Do you really thinks it’s fair to put your opponent in the position of having to stop and question you as to whether you touched the cue ball? And if they do, what are you going to say? Lie that you didn’t touch it or admit that you did but you weren’t honest enough to call it on yourself?
We had a player on the opposing team brush the wrong ball on the way by with the cue ball and the opponent who was my team mate was blocked from view by someone walking in front of him where he was sitting at the exact moment of the shot. The shooter didn't call it on himself even though he knew damned well my team mate couldn't have seen it if he wanted to and that he fouled. And frankly in league we don't feel the need to watch super close because for the most part players are honest.


After the game he said he knew he fouled but it wasn't his place to call it. Well it wasn't our place to call him "Cheating Bill" right up until he died either but we did it anyway.

Moral of the story? If you don't want the prefix of your name to be known as "cheating" have integrity.
 
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