Sportsmanship

Neil said:
Ahh, another Earl bashing thread! Like him or not, what he did was actually right by the rules. When a ref is present, HE, and HE ALONE is to make the calls. If you want to get technical, Scott blew it, Charlie was displaying unsportsmanship conduct by opening his mouth and sharking Earl, and Earl is not ALLOWED to call fouls on himself. In some tournaments, if he had given Charlie ball in hand, he would have lost that game, and another game. But, go ahead and bash Earl for actually following the rules.:rolleyes: But go ahead and overlook Scotts momentary ineptitude, and Charlies flagrant disregard of the rules, NO ARGUING WITH THE REF. The ref doesn't make a call, you aren't allowed to.
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This is the way I see it also. Scott Smith was actually standing behind Earl during the shot in question. It's very difficult to perform your duties as referee if you can't see the shot taking place...
 
BVal said:
Were they playing for $16,000 of their own money?

BVal
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Hey BVal whats up?

The old Skins tourney format was a $5k buy in. However they came up with these "Skins" if you won 3 games in a row, or the sudden death round. The tourney format was to pay out for every skin earned across the board. In other words whatever the Skin was worth was literally how much cash you were taking home from the tournament. The skins started really small but ended really high...Neils Feijen won a skin at the end worth around $34 grand I believe and that added to his walk away money. The format didnt last believe it or not due to the payout structure. Skins werent worth thousands until the 3rd round of the tourney.

So while it was not for $16k of their own money it was literally for $16k...not only that it was for the chance to move into the finals where the final $50k was getting distributed. It would have been a huge score for any player, thats for sure.
 
Neil said:
Ahh, another Earl bashing thread!
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Another unabashed defense of the indefenseable. Earl is just way over the top. Defending him gives him a excuse for what he does. I disagree. Vehemently!

neil said:
In some tournaments, if he had given Charlie ball in hand, he would have lost that game, and another game.
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Mike Zuglan's Turning Stone Joss event was one of the first to institute the lose an extra game conceding the nine ball rule. Mike uses the rule for the SPECTATORS benefit, not the players. I've never heard of the rule you mention. I don't play everywhere. However, I think I would of heard of such a tournament rule even here at AZ. Why penalize a player for being honest. You gotta show me!

Lyn
 
I was playing in Atlantic City, playing Rudolfo Luiat, and I made a legal shot when the cue-ball ever so gently struck the rail. I announced I made a legal shot. The ref was busy,watching a match, he deemed more important than mine. After I said, what I said, he walked over and looked at the cue-ball. It wasn't touching the rail. He gave Rudolfo, ball-in-hand.

Ever since that day, I make sure the ref is watching, every little thing that goes on. He blew the call on Charlie like the ref blew, my call. If it happened on camera, they should review the call.

I try to be honest, but some people cheat every chance they get. I watch them, even closer, than the rest of the players. It sucks playing that way, but it's a necessary evil.
 
bfdlad said:
I always call the foul on myself. For 2 reasons, first it is the right thing to do. Secondly if you don't say anything and someone else sees it then your personal credibility will be in question. I like being able to say something to someone and they take my word for it because I have a reputation for being honest. I think once you start cheating or being dishonest nomatter how small u just took something away from yourself that you will not be able to get back.
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Tap, tap tap.

JoeyA
 
tom mcgonagle said:
I was playing in Atlantic City, playing Rudolfo Luiat, and I made a legal shot when the cue-ball ever so gently struck the rail. I announced I made a legal shot. The ref was busy,watching a match, he deemed more important than mine. After I said, what I said, he walked over and looked at the cue-ball. It wasn't touching the rail. He gave Rudolfo, ball-in-hand.

Ever since that day, I make sure the ref is watching, every little thing that goes on. He blew the call on Charlie like the ref blew, my call. If it happened on camera, they should review the call.

I try to be honest, but some people cheat every chance they get. I watch them, even closer, than the rest of the players. It sucks playing that way, but it's a necessary evil.
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Very good post, I agree. It sucks to lose a match where the other guy played better...It sucks even more to lose to the "call goes to the shooter" rule.

I watch my opponent's shots closely when there's a chance of a bad hit happening. I've never tried to lie, so my opponents believe me when I say " bad hit".

I wish there could be an impartial ref for every pool match, but since that's not possible, we should be responsible for our own fouls...I've lost a tourney in the finals, because I double hit an 8 ball that I was very close to....It sucked, but I had to call it....

When there is a ref, however, you have to defer to his ruling, esp. in a TV match...imo.
 
Like mr441 said, why does everyone think its bad sportsmanship if a player doesn't call a foul on himself but no one ever thinks its bad form for a baseball player to fail to admit he was out when stealing a base even when it's clear to everyone that he was out.
I'm not saying it's right to cheat, it's just that there seems to be a double standard here.
 
I saw this game a couple of years ago and was shock at what Earl said to CW! Now as a person that has meet Earl I like him and think he is a nice guy out side of the pool world but is as dangerous as a loaded gun. I had considered taking a lesson from him but that act that I saw on TV told me that it would go against all of my common sense. I could get a fair shake out of the deal but I also could get screwed. If you have to ask yourself these questions then you should probably not do it. There was a story I heard about a woman walking in the freezing cold that came upon a snake that was near death from the fridge temperature so she picks the snake up and put it up to her bosom and takes it home. She keeps it warm, feeds it and takes care of it but one day it bites her. She says how can you bite me after I saved your life, bring you into my home and take care of you. The reply was you knew I was a snake when you picked me up.

That being said whether it is a game for money or for fun your integrity will be with you a lot longer than money. I care more about myself first of all and second what people think of me and as for money, well when you die just think about this "You can't take it with you and you can't send for it".
 
This is to BVAL

I used to be the honest guy and always had integrity when gambling with others. I got tired of always calling my mistakes but when the other guy made them and didnt call them and I did, it would always get into a big argument. And seeing that I am always playing away from home the majority of their buddys against my skinny ass usually rules.

So I got sick and tired of watching all of this and now if someone does something shady then I try to get away with what ever I can. If I play you and you have integrity then I will too. If you dont then I wont. I have lost to much money to assholes with no integrity while I was the honest guy and telling myself it makes me a better person with empty pockets. BULLSHIT! Their is a reason Paul Newman said , "The Best is the guy with most". When I am gambling I am there to win. And if you cheat then I am going to level the playing field by doing the same.

Now Earl did something shady and I am glad he lost because of it.

I think alot of you on here can relate to what I am saying.

This is ridiculous having to explain myself on forums.
 
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NewStroke said:
You all may have addressed this before, but I was watching the 2004 Skins Championship Semi Final and saw something that really bothered me. Strickland was shooting the 4 ball and hit it cleanly but when pulling his cue back he hit the 5. A clear foul. Williams called the foul but Earl responded that the ref did not see it and was forced to shoot from a crappy position. Williams ended up winning but would you have called the foul on yourself?

I know that if I was 5 games ahead or 5 games down I would have called the foul and given my opponent ball in hand. Billiards is supposed to be a gentleman's game, much like golf, are there than many people out there that will go to that extent to win a game?
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We all know there are people out there who will do anything to win, even cheat.
They choose to call it "getting an edge", or "seeking an advantage".

Cheating is cheating in sports and games.
It is pathetic and speaks volumes about the character and integrity of the offender.
This is one of those traits in human nature in which there is no black and white. I have seen pool players do it, multi-million-dollar soccer players do it...the list goes on and on.
I have even seen people cheat when playing pool for fun.

It is wrong to cheat, hustle, swindle, con, bamboozle or lie to your opponent in sports...period.
 
center pocket said:
This is to BVAL

I used to be the honest guy and always had integrity when gambling with others. I got tired of always calling my mistakes but when the other guy made them and didnt call them and I did, it would always get into a big argument. And seeing that I am always playing away from home the majority of their buddys against my skinny ass usually rules.

So I got sick and tired of watching all of this and now if someone does something shady then I try to get away with what ever I can. If I play you and you have integrity then I will too. If you dont then I wont. I have lost to much money to assholes with no integrity while I was the honest guy and telling myself it makes me a better person with empty pockets. BULLSHIT! Their is a reason Paul Newman said , "The Best is the guy with most". When I am gambling I am there to win. And if you cheat then I am going to level the playing field by doing the same.

Now Earl did something shady and I am glad he lost because of it.

I think alot of you on here can relate to what I am saying.

This is ridiculous having to explain myself on forums.
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Interesting response. I for one don't lower myself to cheating just because someone tries to cheat against me. If they cheat then that is on them. If I cheat then I am just as big a scumbag as the person I despise. I understand that everyone is different and you don't mind lowering yourself to cheat back. If someone does something that you think is shady you will do anything you can get away with. What if the person had no intention of being shady and it was just how you perceived it? I find it better to not have to flip a switch between having integrity and being shady. I find it best to play with integrity in all situations. Again everyone is different. I am sorry to ask you to explain why you don't have integrity sometimes. Feel free to not explain yourself any further. Have a great day.

BVal
 
What's worse - not admitting to a foul or dumping a match? I've seen Efren Reyes blatantly dump a match, it was the semi-finals of a Joss several years ago. He lost to another filipino, I think it was Bustamante, all the filipino's bought Fransisco in the Calcutta, it was clear to everyone watching that he was dumping (not just having a bad day) but NO ONE ever calls "Saint Efren" on any foul play.
 
The Pearl

I saw this match on TV recently. It was clear that Earl committed a foul, it was also clear that he knew he committed a foul. But they had a ref, and only the ref can call a foul. When you are playing as a professional for money you expect the ref to make the calls and you have to live with them whether you like them or not. So, no foul was called, is that Earl's fault? Should he argue with the ref on his opponent's behalf? That's insane, these guys are not playing for peanuts, they are playing for a living. If the ref had made a bad call against Earl, would that give Earl the right to complain? Of course not. Ref's are imperfect, and that's part of the game, everything humans do is imperfect, and such is life.

I took Earl and Archer's pool school a good while back, had a great time, both of them really nice guys. I'm sure it's hard for most of us to know what we would do in that situation. Earl has been playing long enough to know that the ref makes the calls, and when you get a break you have to take it because your opponent would do the same.
 
As stated before, when I was playing I always called a foul if I did something wrong. I played mostly local tournaments where everyone treated the game as I did. But it didnt take many out of town touraments to run into people that would take advantage, and then I could understand how players could change their stance on the subject.

Some more food for thought,

Player A and player B are shooting the exact same shot, we will use a potential double hit as an example.

Player A has spent time reading rules and learning what is a foul and what isnt.

Player B, while always being honest and calling his own fouls when he commits them, doesnt know as much as player A about double hits.

Both players foul on the shot, but there was no ref watching.

Is it fair that player A, because he has taken time to actually learn the rules, would give up ball in hand but if he had been in the chair and player B fouled he would not get ball in hand?

I know A should have had someone watch the hit, and all about honesty and integrity. I just bring up the point for discussion.

Woody
 
Bobby said:
Like mr441 said, why does everyone think its bad sportsmanship if a player doesn't call a foul on himself but no one ever thinks its bad form for a baseball player to fail to admit he was out when stealing a base even when it's clear to everyone that he was out.
I'm not saying it's right to cheat, it's just that there seems to be a double standard here.
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If it's not right to cheat, then the appropriate question isn't why is there a double standard; it's why do baseball players cheat?

pj
chgo
 
Not callinG a foul ON YOURSELF vs. SHARKING your opponent.

Tom In Cincy said:
It is a lot easier to pick on Earl, especially since he seems to be under the microscope more than the other Hall of Famers currently still playing competitively.

What ever some may think about this particular situation it isn't as bad as some of the other so-called Gentlemen players still competing.

Just recently in Vegas, Rodney Morris acted like a raging idiot getting into the face of the UPA's current president Franky Alverez so bad, during the tournament, that Rodney was DQ'd and had to publicly apologize (see AZ bulletins).

Cheating is just one of the Unsportsmanlike conduct violations. But Earl did not Cheat, he just played by the rules. The ref is there to call the fouls not the shooter or the opponent.
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Tap, tap, tap.
When you pay attention to what really goes on in pool matches, the not calling a foul on himself was a misdemeanor when compared to some of the outright despicable things that some players do.

Which do you think is worse? Not calling a foul on yourself or Sharking?

And when one admits that sharking is the greater of the two evils (if the former can be called an evil) THERE IS PLENTY ROOM TO SPREAD THE JUDGMENT AROUND.

JoeyA
 
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