SS vs Composite joints

Gerry

Gerry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last week I was playing around with all my playing cues (about 6) and I noticed I really took to a cue I have that is built as a copy of a south west. After repairing my game a few months ago (alignment) this cue felt perfect! The biggest difference was action on the cue ball compared to a few of my SS jointed cues? At will I could put the buggy whip on the ball with control.

at first I thought...new cue...new feeling thing. Nah, I set up a bunch of stroke shots to check it out. I clearly had the ability to juice the ball if needed.

Anyone run into this deal before?...BTW I was perfectly happy with my SS playing cue to this point.

hmmm, gerry
 
Gerry,

SW does a phenolic flat-faced joint, yes? Well that's probably as good as it gets without an ivory or a wood-to-wood joint as far as hit/feel.

Personally, my piloted SS joint feels plenty good with little vibration effect coming back to my arm. It's all in the balance of the cue. I had the worst vibration with my old Palmer. It actually hurt to try and draw a ball, I could feel it all the way up to my elbow!

Barbara

Gerry said:
Last week I was playing around with all my playing cues (about 6) and I noticed I really took to a cue I have that is built as a copy of a south west. After repairing my game a few months ago (alignment) this cue felt perfect! The biggest difference was action on the cue ball compared to a few of my SS jointed cues? At will I could put the buggy whip on the ball with control.

at first I thought...new cue...new feeling thing. Nah, I set up a bunch of stroke shots to check it out. I clearly had the ability to juice the ball if needed.

Anyone run into this deal before?...BTW I was perfectly happy with my SS playing cue to this point.

hmmm, gerry
Click to expand...
 
I have hated SS joints on my playing cues for a long time. And still continue to do so. I actually love the way they hit..... I just don't like the way they play. If that makes sense. I'll take a big pin, with a wood to wood feeling joint any day over SS. But that's just preference. Some people feel the exact opposite.

Tony
 
Im one with the opposite opinion..... :D Really, it just boils down to what feels good to you. And it does change sometimes over the years. I have played with wood to wood joints, and such over the years when things didnt feel right. But you always tend to go back to whatever really does feel best to you.
Chuck
 
Neither joint style, SS or wood to wood, makes any difference in how much you can juice the cueball. Other factors, such as shaft taper, balance, weight, tip type and shape, have a far greater effect.

As for the cue's hit, I never liked the metallic ringing hit of a SS joint. My preference for years has been FF wood to wood, ala my Southwest cues. I also prefer a stiffer hitting, parabolic taper to a whippier extended taper shaft. The whippier shaft does produce more action, but offers less feel and is more difficult to control for tight position.

In the end, it's all about personal preferences. If you have a good stroke, you can adapt and play with just about anything. But eventually most players find a combination of cue characteristics that fits their game. For example, if you need help moving the cueball, a more flexible shaft will definitely provide more cueball action. Need more control? Get a stiffer shaft.
 
Kevin Lindstrom said:
This is a great post and would love to hear more opinions on this topic.
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My opinion, and I'm not qualified, but I challenge anyone to demonstrate in a meaningful way not only that a SS joint, wood to wood, Phenolic etc. have different characteristics, but that they could even distinguish the difference between them.

BTW there have been many posts on this exact subject here on the AZ.
 
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Another question

Just out of curiosity if the type of joint has NO effect on the hit of the cue as some people contend, can someone explain why there are so many different joint types used on cues.
 
Kevin Lindstrom said:
Just out of curiosity if the type of joint has NO effect on the hit of the cue as some people contend, can someone explain why there are so many different joint types used on cues.
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There are two reasons, and I've no opinion on which is more common.

1. Product differentiation, same reason there are so many different connectors on "standard" USB cables for digital cameras. When things need repair, the cuemaker wants your business to come to him instead of someone else.

2. Product innovation: cuemakers love to experiment and try to improve things, bless 'em.
 
tedkaufman said:
Neither joint style, SS or wood to wood, makes any difference in how much you can juice the cueball. Other factors, such as shaft taper, balance, weight, tip type and shape, have a far greater effect...
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I agree, from a pure physics standpoint.

The dissonant sound of a steel joint may cause some players to cringe ever so slightly when applying English, which could account for their better performance with non-steel joints.
 
I actually like the sound of the SS joint hit. Some of my best hitting SS cues have that real nice "ping"!

I know my least favorite joint type is wood to wood with no collars. The feeling I get is the hit is hard, or lack of a buffer is the better term maybe? one of my cues has a wood to wood, hard layered tip, and melamine ferrule. WAY too hard or clicky IMO.

At the moment I'm really liking my cue with the big radial pin, triangle tip, ivorine ferrule, and an extended pro taper. Funny thing is I got it off E-bay new for like $145 delivered with 2 shafts!:D I know you all have seen this cue if you check out E-bay.

Gerry
 
Incoming untested and unsubstantiated theory alert . . . . . . :D

A flat faced joint of any type has end grain to end grain contact. The "grain" can be wood, phenolic, ivory or whatever. They could be wood fibers, but they are still flat ends banging against each other.

A piloted joint has some end grain contact, but also has overlapping grains where the male shaft inserts into the female pilot hole. Can I say that??

I think the end grain to end grain mutes or kills some of the harmonics traveling down the cue, whereas the overlapping grain transmits them with less distortion. This creates a more pure harmonic transmission.

End of unscientific-wild-a$$-theory . . . .

Like ted said above, the tip, ferrule, and shaft contribute much more to hit than the joint. I think.....

EDIT: My theory also applies to why a full splice cue feels different and transmits the harmonics better that a "short"-splice/inlayed-points cue.
 
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Gregg said:
My opinion, and I'm not qualified, but I challenge anyone to demonstrate in a meaningful way not only that a SS joint, wood to wood, Phenolic etc (Viking has six . have different characteristics, but that they could even distinguish the difference between them.

BTW there have been many posts on this exact subject here on the AZ.
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Not trying to be an a$$, but I have a predator cue the shaft also fits on my Tim Scruggs. The predator has a SS joint and the Scruggs has a phenolic joint. If you want to come on down to Ga I'll gladly send you home a few bills lighter:D
 
Without trying to sound knowledgable on the subject, because i'm not, my first cue was a ss joint that made a tuning fork sound sometimes when you hit with it. My current cue is a Schon and it does not make a metallic sound, it sounds like wood. Maybe it has something to do with the way they make their piloted joint, I don't know.

I would think that as long as the cue screws together tight with plenty of surface contact between the joint and shaft, the joint would have less to do with the way it plays than the type of tip, ferrule and shaft taper/diameter.
 
the joint has little to do with the way the cue sounds if there is no space between the butt end and the shaft how would you get a vibration on the joint that is locked in place between to non moving objects. so saying one joint is better that the other is the way players complain when they loose
 
Gerry said:
I actually like the sound of the SS joint hit. Some of my best hitting SS cues have that real nice "ping"!

I know my least favorite joint type is wood to wood with no collars. The feeling I get is the hit is hard, or lack of a buffer is the better term maybe? one of my cues has a wood to wood, hard layered tip, and melamine ferrule. WAY too hard or clicky IMO.

At the moment I'm really liking my cue with the big radial pin, triangle tip, ivorine ferrule, and an extended pro taper. Funny thing is I got it off E-bay new for like $145 delivered with 2 shafts!:D I know you all have seen this cue if you check out E-bay.
Gerry
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I get that "ping" sound from flat faced phenolic cues like the one I have built for my self....I never had heard that from a SS jointed cue myself...
________
 
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From a pure physics standpoint, I beleive there is a difference between the different joint materials. Any flat-face joint whether it be wood-to-wood, phonelic-to-wood, or some other type of resin, will transfer more energy to the cueball while providing the greatest amount of feedback. This is due to the fact that more surface area is created between the butt and shaft with a flat-faced joint. A piloted type joint, like SS although doesn't transfer as much energy offers other benefits such as strength and consistency. I also find that a SS joint will dampen the vibrations felt (which is why the feedback isn't as great).

Whether a flat-faced joint vs. SS piloted is better is a matter of personal preference. I find that a flat-faced joint suits my stroke best as I can apply draw/follow with ease. However, my main playing cue is a SS joint because I hit the balls more consistent with this cue.

Id also like to add that the joint material is only one of many variables that can effect a cues playability. The weight, balance point, and overall construction of a cue can drastically change a cues performace (especially the construction).

Although much of this is my opinion and not backed my equations, I do have an engineering background and had the pleasure of sitting through numerous physics and materials classes :-)

-pip9ball
 
I always thought that the best cue would be a solid well constructed one piece cue. The joint was used as a way to make the cue shorter and be easier to carry. The joint is a device used to join the two pieces back together. Apparently after reading some of these posts the joint is actually adding to the playability of the cue. Somehow it is making the cue put more action on the cue ball?

Actually a one piece cue is really 2 pieces because that is the purpose of a full splice; to join two pieces of wood together to make it as one.

I really don't think a joint does much for a cue. May be that is why I have a Layani and a Lambros.
 
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TheBook said:
I always thought that the best cue would be a solid well constructed one piece cue. The joint was used as a way to make the cue shorter and be easier to carry. The joint is a device used to join the two pieces back together. Apparently after reading some of these posts the joint is actually adding to the playability of the cue. Somehow it is making the cue put more action on the cue ball?

Actually a one piece cue is really 2 pieces because that is the purpose of a full splice; to join two pieces of wood together to make it as one.

I really don't think a joint does much for a cue. May be that is why I have a Layani and a Lambros.
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I used to play a guy that carried his own 1 piece cue with him. He put yellow tape on the but, and took the cue everywhere. His name escapes me, but if i remember i'll post it.
 
Taper, Tip and Ferrule will significantly change the feel of any cue. With the proper combination, you can obtain the desired hit with almost any quality cue and joint. (as a general rule). Ivory flat face joints seems the most difficult to find/make a combination with the hit/feel I like. They seem to require more tweaking than other joints. Of course, this is just my opinion.
 
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