Stevie Moore's Rules argument with Justin

Round 8 of the DCC 9-Ball event. Saturday afternoon, final day of the event. Bustamante vs. Immonen, race to 7. Immonen was ahead 6-5 and breaking. He made the 4-ball on the break. He then shot at the 1-ball but missed badly. The 1-ball caromed around the table causing several collisions, one of which propelled the 9-ball into a pocket. Match over.

Is that how we want to see matches end between two world champions?
 
AtLarge said:
Round 8 of the DCC 9-Ball event. Saturday afternoon, final day of the event. Bustamante vs. Immonen, race to 7. Immonen was ahead 6-5 and breaking. He made the 4-ball on the break. He then shot at the 1-ball but missed badly. The 1-ball caromed around the table causing several collisions, one of which propelled the 9-ball into a pocket. Match over.

Is that how we want to see matches end between two world champions?
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Well if you just wanna focus on that particular rack. Then that's your choice. What did he do to win the other 6 games that got him on the hill? Or was that meaningless?

Bottom line is 9ball is a game it contains luck/skill as most games do. The players know this going in so they have accepted that fact. The luck can factor in for either player. Anyone who has ever had the case 9 slopped on them has slopped the case 9 on someone else more than likely at some point in their career.

They already cried enough about the soft break and got the game changed to 10ball now they wanna get upset because their opponent hooks them to? Truth is corey pulled that soft break out on earl a long time ago.

The soft break took a lot of luck out of 9ball imo when you can learn to break, make a ball, and play shape then not much "luck" going on then is there?
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Jay, with all due respect.
Golf and pool are two completely different entities.
The luck between the two cannot be compared as golf is an individual pursuit, and in professional play, you NEVER have to shoot a shot that you didn't leave for yourself. In regards to the shots you take, you are in complete control of your fate and do not have to deal with bad lies, sand traps, and water hazards because OTHER people left you there after they were done shooting and you had to continue from those spots. But that happens all the time in pool.

Tiger was never forced to shoot his shots, frozen to the bark of the wrong side of a tree, because ANOTHER golfer had left the ball there off the T-shot.
And the luck issue has absolutely nothing to do with who the best player is or not.

If Tiger got stuck on the wrong side of the tree countless times because he had to shoot after someone else shot, from where they left him, i can guarantee you that he would not have as many championships as he has today.

In pool.
No incoming player should be penalized and be forced to shoot when hooked by a MISTAKE.
Penalize the player who MADE the mistake.

Weaker players aren't going to go anywhere.
Anyone who has ever been addicted to pool, knows that the weaker players are going to want to get better, REGARDLESS of if the luck rules are there or not.
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Hmmmm. I guess you never have seen all of those Tiger highlights through the years where he buries his head into his hands or his hat for a second or two and then looks up with an embarassed grin or laugh for being guilty of a lucky shot.

The thing about luck is the best players have a tendency to create their own luck and work it to their advantage. The rest of us just get lucky once in awhile.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
What is your opinions on jump cues?
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I don't care for them , but if you put in the time to play well with one more power to you

Its like Corry, he put the time in to get reallllly good at his break and they changed the rules because of it.

Put the time in like he did don't change the rules because you are to lazy to get to that level.

I don't play with a jump cue and I know it puts me at a disadvantage, but I do it knowingly and don't complain about it when I lose a game after someone jumps a ball in on me.
 
More people dump money into poker everyweekend because they feel as though "any 2 cards" have a chance of winning which means; I, (the player), have a chance of winning. In reality that chance maybe very slim when you count up the probability of hitting what you need based on your whole cards but people still dump money into the game because they "have a chance"

It only helps the thought process more when 2 Poker Pro's are sitting on a TV table and you see Player A "misread" the opponent and call into a losing hand with only 1 card that will save them and they get "lucky" and make a boat or flush or whatever it may be to win.

People like to see that reaction, that luck, that excitement and of course tons of people think poker can make you a millionaire if you play in your basement on a computer for 12hours a day.


People get lucky, shiz happens. Im sure players have gotten lucky and knocked out great players but im sure those great players go on to win other events and make money elsewhere. You can't keep a good thing down. I think maybe Stevie just got a bit emotional and said what he said, he prolly wan't thinking about the growth of the sport just how lucky the other guy was.
 
spanky79 said:
I don't care for them , but if you put in the time to play well with one more power to you

Its like Corry, he put the time in to get reallllly good at his break and they changed the rules because of it.

Put the time in like he did don't change the rules because you are to lazy to get to that level.

I don't play with a jump cue and I know it puts me at a disadvantage, but I do it knowingly and don't complain about it when I lose a game after someone jumps a ball in on me.
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Wow. I agree with everything you said.

But you did spell Cory's name wrong.
And you were SO close to perfection.:)
 
BigDaddyInc, I agree with you 100%.

BigDaddyInc. said:
Well if you just wanna focus on that particular rack. Then that's your choice. What did he do to win the other 6 games that got him on the hill? Or was that meaningless?

Bottom line is 9ball is a game it contains luck/skill as most games do. The players know this going in so they have accepted that fact. The luck can factor in for either player. Anyone who has ever had the case 9 slopped on them has slopped the case 9 on someone else more than likely at some point in their career.

They already cried enough about the soft break and got the game changed to 10ball now they wanna get upset because their opponent hooks them to? Truth is corey pulled that soft break out on earl a long time ago.

The soft break took a lot of luck out of 9ball imo when you can learn to break, make a ball, and play shape then not much "luck" going on then is there?
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Great point BigDaddyInc,
It goes with the game, we did not invent nor make the rules for the game. It is just like the hits in football all of a certain they want to fine you for hitting a quarterback or player, the wrong way. If you do not like the rules don't play the game! Thanks.

Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
Great answer to the question!

spanky79 said:
I don't care for them , but if you put in the time to play well with one more power to you

Its like Corry, he put the time in to get reallllly good at his break and they changed the rules because of it.

Put the time in like he did don't change the rules because you are to lazy to get to that level.

I don't play with a jump cue and I know it puts me at a disadvantage, but I do it knowingly and don't complain about it when I lose a game after someone jumps a ball in on me.
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You are correct all the way. I agree with you 100%. Why change rules to the game to please someone that probably cannot play anyway! Then you have to have a complaint dept. A rules committee and so on. The old players never worried about changing the rules they just played the game! Thanks. Sounds like NASCAR on here now!
Regards,
Lock N Load.
 
The state of Pool

Has not changed that much in the last 50 years, except now you have leagues and more tournaments, especially local tournaments. Pool will never be a mainstream sport, although many a person has had good ideas for making it so.

The nation's economy and the fact that so many people are unemployed is the main reason Pool is where it is now.
 
pixel8tr said:
Everyone seems to be studiously ignoring Johnnyt's post regarding Vegas sportsbook betting. If you are old enough to know what and who he is referring to, then you probably know he's right. Do you suppose that snooker would have ever reached the pinnacle it did in England if all those fans couln't go down to the local betshop and wager on their favorite players? It will be a real cold day in hell before the oddsmakers in Vegas get dumped by a bunch of pool players again. In England, even the suspicion of cheating, drug use, etc, is thoroughly investigated and penalties are meted out. Check the careers of Ronnie O'Sullivan and John Higgins if you don't believe me. I used to stake small time players, but the dump has been refined into an art form over the years. Why wager on a match with a predetermined outcome? Give the sanctioning bodies some real power, figure out a way to bet online, and pool stands a chance to at least become a minor sport.
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Absolutely agree with you here. I mentioned the gambling site sponsoring it, but I forgot the core reason why they would, and it is not just people betting on other sports.

The reason "amateur" university basketball, baseball, and NFL are so popular in America is that it is easy to gamble on them even if it is illegal. (think office pools and local bookies) With lesser sports it is really hard, even golf. People can only seem to get a fair gamble on the course in america, not on the tournaments unless they live in vegas or bet illegally.

Gambling drives snooker, and it is quite fun to gamble on. There are recent integrity issues, but that always comes up. There are many more issues in tennis where a WTA match could be for some $800 difference in prize money on an outer court yet have £4 million wagered on it. The thing that needs to change in america is legalized online betting, take the bookies out of it and just have betting on exchanges. It exposes the cheats more readily, and gives people a fair price just like the stock market.
 
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12squared said:
Let the rules stand or go back to push out on all shots, call pocket is OK w/o the harsh penalty of choice to shoot or not. At least w/push out you can be creative, make some great shots, play 2 way shots and you don't have to accept what the table or player leaves you. But what is best for the spectators - it's not always about the players you know.

Dave
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What people need to get is that pool with the most lucky rules is skillful enough. Variance in pool is dependent on sample size. Make the matches longer and luck approaches zero.

In the snooker world championship final they play best of 35 for the final. And each frame of snooker is worth about 4 nine ball frames variance-wise.

They are trying in snooker to add variance and variation. There is a tournament now with 6 reds, and a shot clocked tournament, all to add variance and different people winning. Having the same people win always isn't good for the sport too...think men's tennis when nobody was challenging Federer.
 
YankeeDoodleDoo said:
What people need to get is that pool with the most lucky rules is skillful enough. Variance in pool is dependent on sample size. Make the matches longer and luck approaches zero.

In the snooker world championship final they play best of 35 for the final. And each frame of snooker is worth about 4 nine ball frames variance-wise.

They are trying in snooker to add variance and variation. There is a tournament now with 6 reds, and a shot clocked tournament, all to add variance and different people winning. Having the same people win always isn't good for the sport too...think men's tennis when nobody was challenging Federer.
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golf did ok with Tiger winning everything, it all depends on who is wining
 
Here's my opinion

SUPERSTAR said:
Just go back to 2 foul ball in hand and add call shot and the problem is solved.
People can play to their strengths and no one can get a lucky safe

If you get hooked, you can push out and then the strategy begins.
If they like it they take it, if not, they give it back.

END OF PROBLEM.
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Along with the safety play, both planned and accidental, came better kicking {thank you Efren, and Jose} and jump shots. You want more money in pool, it's needs excitement, to entertain spectators. You wanna eliminate a lucky win in a match, make the races a tad longer. YOU WILL NEVER completely eliminate the luck factor in sports. Just like the poker player having 1 out in the deck, and getting it on the river {brings a bit of excitement to the game, along with the heartbreak, huh?} excites the crowd. Personally, I would hate to see anything, especially a penalty for a missed shot, slow down a break and run player like Earl from shooting. Guys running racks are far more appealing to spectators, than safety play. Better commentating, explaining the thought processes of the shooter, would help the viewer, on tv matches.
 
satman said:
You want more money in pool, it's needs excitement, to entertain spectators...
...Guys running racks are far more appealing to spectators, than safety play.
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Pool has no spectators, and never will.
Texas express is more exciting then two foul ball in hand, so exciting in fact, that pool has gone into the toilet since it's inception.

So much for that theory.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
..Texas express is more exciting then two foul .., so exciting in fact, that pool has gone into the toilet since it's inception.

So much for that theory.
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I think that ass-umption is, well ass-enine. :sorry: You got a logic error.

I would attribute the decline of pool more to the other recreational options readily available.
 
Black-Balled said:
I think that ass-umption is, well ass-enine. :sorry: You got a logic error.

I would attribute the decline of pool more to the other recreational options readily available.
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I am over simplifying, but so far, everything that has happened to make pool exciting has failed.

Nothing is going to compete with other things that are more interesting, so what difference does it make if they go to a less lucky system?
 
The reason pool was the biggest game in the world at one time is that in the late 1800's they only had three sports, they had boxing, horse racing, and pool. Today it's an addiction for some, and its an amateur league for others.

Most of today's "greats" are the result of half ass advertisement not skill level.

This is the real world view of modern pool. Thanks to everyone that helped inspire them to create this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2YAVGSRxlI
 
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