Stevie Moore's Rules argument with Justin

Johnnyt, you are correct! I like what you said.

Johnnyt said:
I really don't think changing the rules in 9 and 10-ball are going to take or put many more fans/viewers in the seats and watching it on TV or stream. Pool is boring for everyone but the hardcore pool nuts.

IMO pool had a good shot at becoming big one time and one time only, and that was when Vegas made a line and took bets on a tournament. A hall of famer and a few other greedy players screwed that up by fixing the outcome. If you could gamble on pool online and at casinos pool would grow. Pool has always had a dark side, (hustling) and that sells.

Put out two movies with big stars in each. Have the story line in one, "How I Became the Best In the APA" and the other "Hustling Under the Radar". I know if one was a box office hit which one it would be.

I think TAR has the right idea putting on Action Matches for 10 to 50k or more. If I had the money I'd take it a few step more. Have 2, 3, or more matches on a card and promote, promote, promote them. Also the players need to be interviewed more before and after matches and the players need to become colorful household names. Hell, take an acting class or two if you don't know how to do an interview that fans will be glued to their seats and TV and Online (think Earl or Alex). You would need one table, not 8 to 50 tables. You would need an arena type setting with good seating. I'm done. Johnnyt
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Johnnyt, You hit the nail on the head with your statement. Was this Justin Hall and Stevie Moore? Thanks.
Lock N Load.
 
Mark Griffin said:
I did not hear the discussion with Stevie and Justin, but we have discussed this beofre.

There is a major problem with 'call shot' - often players will play safe instead of attempting a difficult shot. WHY? Because if I call a shot and 'miss' - the incoming player can make me shoot again!

The problem with that is that I am better off playing a safe to start with. This new thought toward 'call shot' will make the game even more difficutl to watch. Safes will become much more common and fewer run-outs will be attempted. Fewer spectators means less interest.

All games have some luck - but usually a pool player MAKES their own luck by controlling what he can ie speed of shot so a miss goes safe etc. Those are skills - not luck.

Look at golf - there is LOT of luck there - but also a LOT of skill. Same guys come out on top! Seems I agree with Justin - lol.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI-BCAPL
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Another argument against it is that the better players still win regardless. Change the rules and, guess what? The same guys are still going to win. I'm not sure what the outcome is that the proponents of this rule are hoping for, and how that differs from the outcome of most tournaments as they are played now.
 
I just think there should be ONE set of rules for all of the games. Pool is the only sport where you show up to a tourney and the rules are different.
Some tourneys allow jump cues, some the 9 ball counts on the break, some are rack your own, or for each other ect. In any other professional sport such as golf, football, basketball, hockey, ect. they play by one set of rules. I think if we are trying to get the audience to understand and get interested there shouldn't be different rules for every tourney. Just my two cents! Thanks for letting me vent!
 
I swear the game of pool is in a mess right now with these fly by night rules. Anytime someone gets hooked, or does'nt make a ball on the break they blame somebody else! They wanna play the victim role, "i got hooked that's not fair, im a world champion i should never get hooked"! "i can't make a ball on the break boo hoo"!

So the mentality seems to be nowadays if something does'nt work in your favor then make a new rule! If that's the case then whenever i play a ranked pro i want ball in hand everytime they miss. Just kidding im not a whiner and i can take my beatings and learn from them.
 
Jimmy M. said:
Another argument against it is that the better players still win regardless. ...
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I don't think that argument is valid.

The element of luck in pool is not significant enough to allow a mediocre player to beat several champions in a row to win a big tournament. So it's always going to be someone from your group of "better players" that wins. But luck is significant enough to be a factor (and sometimes a huge factor) in determining which of the "better players" wins any particular event.
 
AtLarge said:
I don't think that argument is valid.

The element of luck in pool is not significant enough to allow a mediocre player to beat several champions in a row to win a big tournament. So it's always going to be someone from your group of "better players" that wins. But luck is significant enough to be a factor (and sometimes a huge factor) in determining which of the "better players" wins any particular event.
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I think the argument is perfectly valid: someone who plays good enough to win does win.

I isn't friggin' equations, it is pool and there should be more than 1 answer to the question 'who shall win'? Otherwise, SVB wins...he is planning on attending the (all the) event(s), so send him the money.
 
Unfortunately, some of the top players believe that reducing luck will make their sport more professional and more lucrative for the best of the best.

Pool is need of viewership and in need of partcipation. This past weekend's $5,000 added one pocket tournament was an excellent example of what pool needs from the pros and the fans. And the weather, while it wasn't good, it just wasn't that bad. Anyone could have flown into Houston and have been picked up at the airport by tournament players as well as the tournament director.

Some of the things that will help professional pool players are:
Pool players acting professionally in pool tournaments.
Pool players making an extra effort to be kind to and chat with the spectators whenever they can.
Pool players acting like sportsmen. (It's not necessary for me to be more blaringingly obvious about what we don't need).
Pool players becoming more responsible, showing up for matches on time.
Pool players talking IN PRIVATE and public, civilly or God forbid, fondly, about those whose talent doesn't reach the stratosphere.
Pool players becoming active in their community developing programs of civic community work that showcases their humanity and interest and their fellow man.
Pool players talking great about their sponsors IN PRIVATE & IN PUBLIC.
Pool players actually trying to figure out a way to help their sponsors sell more product and services and wanting to be a willing part of the solution.

While it is difficult to do any or all of these things, individuals have to make these changes for themselves. Sure, sure, we need some more money in this sport but professional players aren't going to bring more money into this sport by eliminating what little luck is still left in it.

The truth is that more luck (excitement) is probably what is needed rather than less.

I realize that it isn't easy for a professional player to justify investing his time into things that aren't going to immediately start the money flowing but it is these changes that will enhance the chances of the valve to be opened.

When I go to pool tournaments and see the professional players attending these tournaments, it breaks my heart to see that there is so little money in them. The players who finish back of the top few spots seldom ever make enough money to pay for their expenses of going to the tournament let alone making a profit for paying life's bills.

Maybe I am just looking at this through rose-colored glasses but I can confidently say that a well-respected professional pool player has a much better chance of making a decent living than one who doesn't carry himself professionally.
 
Somebody once said about Bob Gibson that he was the luckiest pitcher in baseball. When he pitched the other team hardly ever scored.
 
JoeyA said:
Unfortunately, some of the top players believe that reducing luck will make their sport more professional and more lucrative for the best of the best.

Pool is need of viewership and in need of partcipation. This past weekend's $5,000 added one pocket tournament was an excellent example of what pool needs from the pros and the fans. And the weather, while it wasn't good, it just wasn't that bad. Anyone could have flown into Houston and have been picked up at the airport by tournament players as well as the tournament director.

Some of the things that will help professional pool players are:
Pool players acting professionally in pool tournaments.
Pool players making an extra effort to be kind to and chat with the spectators whenever they can.
Pool players acting like sportsmen. (It's not necessary for me to be more blaringingly obvious about what we don't need).
Pool players becoming more responsible, showing up for matches on time.
Pool players talking IN PRIVATE and public, civilly or God forbid, fondly, about those whose talent doesn't reach the stratosphere.
Pool players becoming active in their community developing programs of civic community work that showcases their humanity and interest and their fellow man.
Pool players talking great about their sponsors IN PRIVATE & IN PUBLIC.
Pool players actually trying to figure out a way to help their sponsors sell more product and services and wanting to be a willing part of the solution.

While it is difficult to do any or all of these things, individuals have to make these changes for themselves. Sure, sure, we need some more money in this sport but professional players aren't going to bring more money into this sport by eliminating what little luck is still left in it.

The truth is that more luck (excitement) is probably what is needed rather than less.

I realize that it isn't easy for a professional player to justify investing his time into things that aren't going to immediately start the money flowing but it is these changes that will enhance the chances of the valve to be opened.

When I go to pool tournaments and see the professional players attending these tournaments, it breaks my heart to see that there is so little money in them. The players who finish back of the top few spots seldom ever make enough money to pay for their expenses of going to the tournament let alone making a profit for paying life's bills.

Maybe I am just looking at this through rose-colored glasses but I can confidently say that a well-respected professional pool player has a much better chance of making a decent living than one who doesn't carry himself professionally.
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Dang it Joey, quit makin' so much sense!!! :thumbup:

Maniac
 
I agree with SUPERSTAR and Stevie for that matter, assuming that was his argument. No luck is definitely the way to go. And as far as the fans are concerned, I'm sure they can appreciate skill as well. Just my opinion.
 
jaybanthony said:
I agree with SUPERSTAR and Stevie for that matter, assuming that was his argument. No luck is definitely the way to go. And as far as the fans are concerned, I'm sure they can appreciate skill as well. Just my opinion.
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:banghead:
Wise man say appreciative audience not make money:
fcee06 said:
Im forever hearing people wanting to change a game to suit a few. Tighter pocket and tighter rules only benefit those who dont miss much in the first place. You can never take luck out of the game no matter what you try to do. Some vote to take the jump shot out. Jump shots are a skill shot just like kicking is a skill. The reason 9 ball is so much more popular with "The Bangers" as you call them is because its exciting. You can end the game with one shot. Its that excitement that make low level "bangers" want to support our sport. Nine ball is a game for "bangers for the most part, but its a game thats consistantly won by about 10 of the same guys. If it is as easy and lucky as everyone makes it out to be with the rules as they are, why are there not far more people winning the open events? If we tighten the pockets and make the luck factor a penalty, there will still be the same 10 or so pros taking the cash, because thats what they do. Just a B players humble opinion.

Frank C
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Fans?

jaybanthony said:
I agree with SUPERSTAR and Stevie for that matter, assuming that was his argument. No luck is definitely the way to go. And as far as the fans are concerned, I'm sure they can appreciate skill as well. Just my opinion.
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Why don't we just make all tournies a race to 35, and any ball you miss, the other guy gets ball in hand. Oh yea,, lets take lucky shape out of it too. You must call what pocket you will make the next ball in, ahead of time,,, and maybe we could take one of those targets from target pool, and put it down, and the player must leave his cue ball on the target, or forfeit his turn. While we are at it, you must call any ball pocketed on the break, or forfeit the table. Corey's break is now legal {if you pocket the the called balled, all others stay down. I believe that will take care of all the luck factors. Any suggestions?
 
Old days

AtLarge said:
I like that game! Great way to handicap a superior player in 14.1.
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I had an older player teach me that game in 8 ball before I was old enough to get into the bars. A guy who played in the local bars, and beat most everyone, would come to the pool room. He would get mad because I won a few games, and maybe slopped in a ball or 2{back then, slop counted, and there was no ball in hand, or playing obvious safes}.... He would wanna change to call pocket, so I made him play call next shot too. Still beat him, and he would storm out of the pool room. The old guy would laugh at him.
 
I believe the fans want to see skill at the pro level, no luck involved. As a player, I believe in, at the none pro atmosphere we need luck to keep the lesser players involved with a little hope in winning a game. If they keep getting there a*s handed to them there would be a lot of players losing interest in the game.
 
Jmo

sr 9ball said:
I believe the fans want to see skill at the pro level, no luck involved. As a player, I believe in, at the none pro atmosphere we need luck to keep the lesser players involved with a little hope in winning a game. If they keep getting there a*s handed to them there would be a lot of players losing interest in the game.
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Eliminating certain aspects of luck, are ok. But, there are a lot of people talking like the luck factor plays a huge part in the upper levels... I think they are full of it. You have a few of the top level players, who took a bad beat, because someone missed a ball, and accidentally hooked them. No matter what our thoughts are, on eliminating the lucky roll, it will happen. Next thing you know, they will be asking for a pushout rule, if you are playing shape and accidentally bump a ball and get hooked. The rules are the same for everyone. Stop complaining about how you are all getting shafted by a lucky roll, and start focusing on ways to make pool more exciting for the spectators. I still like ball in hand, on all misses, and no saftey play. The game speeds up, spectacular shots will happen, and the races will be longer.
 
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