Stiff hit/Shorter Taper - what to expect?

midnightpulp

midnightpulp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Guys,

As some of you may know, I'm looking for a new cue so I thought I'd ask your opinions since many here have hit with a lot of different cues

Doing some research, I noticed a lot of players like a stiff hit/shorter taper for control and consistency. I've shot with nothing but gradual long tapers my whole life. Wasn't really a conscious choice, just a coincidence that all the cues I've purchased have this style.

Looking at the Schons, I noticed how the taper suddenly gets fat. This is a concern since I use a long bridge on certain shots and have a long follow through. The Schon and similar tapered cues look detrimental to that type of style. Another concern is that some players have related how it can be difficult getting action on the cue ball with a stiff cue. Yet, everyone raves about stiff hitting cues, so I feel I'd be missing out by not trying one.

I wish I go out to the local hall and test fire many different cues, but not many around here play much serious pool, so this forum is my "virtual" testing ground.

Maybe a solution would be to get a Schmelke and have them make me two different types of tapered shafts?

Any thoughts?
 
That's a GREAT idea!
I love their page on shaft taper, very educational.
On second thought, you should just buy my cue (that plays awesome).
-cOOp
 
I agree that it's more difficult to move the cueball with a stiff hitting shaft. I really didn't think it would make that much of a difference, but it does. I know a hard hit isn't the same thing as the stiff hit that you're discussing via a stronger shaft taper, but if you like a hard hit, I recommend a normal pro-type shaft taper with a Titan or Ivorene-4 ferrule and a medium or hard tip. That tip/ferrule combination will provide a very hard hit, and that normal pro-style taper will still allow you to move the cue ball easily.
 
Mr Hoppe said:
I agree that it's more difficult to move the cueball with a stiff hitting shaft. I really didn't think it would make that much of a difference, but it does. I know a hard hit isn't the same thing as the stiff hit that you're discussing via a stronger shaft taper, but if you like a hard hit, I recommend a normal pro-type shaft taper with a Titan or Ivorene-4 ferrule and a medium or hard tip. That tip/ferrule combination will provide a very hard hit, and that normal pro-style taper will still allow you to move the cue ball easily.
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Is this purposeful for those type of cues so it allows for better control on faster cloth? Or is it simply a result of the construction?

It would seem intuitive that a player (for 9 ball, 10 ball) would want a shaft that would produce more action in the event they need to move the cueball a few rails, but with today's cloth I can see the preference for a stiffer, more consistent shaft.

My interim cue is my Dad's cheap Viper and I actually dig the hit and the taper. I measured it with some calipers and the shaft starts to taper at about 16" and continues in a very gradual transition to the joint.

FWIW, my standard bridge length is around 10" with a follow through of about 20". Any suggestions?
 
stiff hit

You are very welcome to visit my website and see if any of my cues would work for you. (www.triplecrosscues.com) I will be glad to answer your questions and discuss your needs.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
i don't think shaft taper is necessarily related to the amount of spin you get. look at carom for example. the cues have a very stiff taper and those guys spin the ball like crazy. or snooker. if you want good spin, you just need a well maintained, properly shaped tip and a good stroke.
 
McChen said:
i don't think shaft taper is necessarily related to the amount of spin you get. look at carom for example. the cues have a very stiff taper and those guys spin the ball like crazy. or snooker. if you want good spin, you just need a well maintained, properly shaped tip and a good stroke.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right. And even a "good stroke" simply means one that's straight and consistent - no magic involved.

If stiffer vs. more flexible has anything to do with what you can do to the cue ball, it's probably the reverse of what you've heard: a stiffer shaft might deliver a little more force so you don't have to stroke as hard, and it might hit a little more consistently because there's less flexing. But the reason I like a stiffer shaft is simply that I like the way it feels.

A lot of the "common wisdom" about pool equipment and technique is simply wrong - myths abound. Take some time to hear different views before deciding what to believe. One guiding rule you can often rely on: although it takes a lifetime to master, pool is simple - if the reason for something you hear or believe isn't simple and clear it probably isn't true.

pj
chgo
 
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i'm with you all the way pj. i'm a fan of the snooker player's strokes myself. nice, straight, simple, minimal movement. i see a lot of pool player's strokes that have all this extraneous fancy stuff in it. keep the movement simple, less to go wrong, less to try and coordinate i say.

i like stiffer shafts as well. i think a stiffer shaft will be more consistent. flexing a material such as wood will always be inconsistent in some way. better to eliminate that variable as much as you can.
 
If stiffer vs. more flexible has anything to do with what you can do to the cue ball, it's probably the reverse of what you've heard: a stiffer shaft might deliver a little more force so you don't have to stroke as hard, and it might hit a little more consistently because there's less flexing. But the reason I like a stiffer shaft is simply that I like the way it feels.
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Interesting perspective pj.

My experience is different.I have two cues that have 12mm tips.One is whippy by any standard and the other has a 15 inch pro taper.The tips are the same (med layered) and have the same radius.

The one with the pro taper is without a doubt the "stiffer" hit....But the fact of the matter is......I will,I have and expect (and had better consider the fact) get more spin with the whippier cue while hitting the cue ball in the same spot.

Now keep in mind,that is my experience.My highly repeatable experience fwiw.You may well be right,but it is contrary to what I consider to be fact based on my own observations.Now I barely hover above banger status and have not had the lessons and experience to say I'm right as a whole.

But If I pull ol whippy out and I'm shooting for two o clock,its gonna be a bit closer to the center to achieve the same result as ol stiffy.
 
i'm a fan of the snooker player's strokes myself. nice, straight, simple, minimal movement
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Me too. And caroms players: they hardly move at all and get crazy action. Look at Sayginer's stroke, for instance - a model of simplicity that makes the cue ball seem to defy the laws of physics.

It's all in the accuracy, which is all in the simplicity (Filipinos notwithstanding).

pj
chgo
 
Testing Shafts for Spin

Thunderball:
the fact of the matter is......I [...] get more spin with the whippier cue while hitting the cue ball in the same spot.
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I appreciate you putting this so clearly ("hitting the cue ball in the same spot") - it gives us something definite to chew on. I have a simple test to propose for you (it's how I test shafts for spin):

Place a striped ball (your "cue ball") on the spot with the stripe vertical and aligned straight across the table (pointed at the second diamond on the side rail).

Shoot the ball directly at the second diamond on the far side rail (so it will bounce straight back at the spot if you hit it without side spin). Put a piece of chalk on the rail turned so its corner is facing you to give you a definite, pinpoint target.

Hit the ball on its equator (not high or low) and right on the edge of the stripe (maximum sidespin) with just enough speed to bounce off the far side rail and barely reach the near side rail. Wipe the ball clean before each shot and check the chalkmark after each shot to see where you're actually hitting the ball. Be sure the tip is all well groomed and well chalked for each test shot.

Mark where the ball hits the near rail (put a coin or a piece of chalk there).

Only count shots that you hit just right. If any of the following things doesn't happen, don't count the shot:

- You don't hit the second diamond on the far side rail exactly.
- The ball stops more than an inch or two short or long of the near side rail.
- You don't hit the "cue ball" exactly on the edge of the stripe at the equator.

Even being really careful you can't replicate these things exactly every time, so hit enough "good" shots so that you can use the average result - say ten "good" shots with each shaft you're testing. To be reliable your results for any one shaft should be very closely grouped.

Test different shafts this way and compare the results (where the ball ends up).

If you want to try more forceful shots, then aim to stop the ball after it rebounds from the near side rail, say at the middle "long string" or at the far side rail again. Again, reject any shot that doesn't stop within an inch or two of the target distance.

I hope you'll try this and let us know your results. I've done it enough times with enough different shafts to know what I expect (I bet you know what I expect too).

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
It's all in the accuracy, which is all in the simplicity (Filipinos notwithstanding).

pj
chgo
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yeah those filipinos are really the exception aren't they. i can't see how they make a ball with that kind of stroke. maybe if you're one of the few that have oodles of talent, you can make it work. but i think us mere mortals need to stick with something simpler, hehe
 
Thunderball said:
Interesting perspective pj.

My experience is different.I have two cues that have 12mm tips.One is whippy by any standard and the other has a 15 inch pro taper.The tips are the same (med layered) and have the same radius.

The one with the pro taper is without a doubt the "stiffer" hit....But the fact of the matter is......I will,I have and expect (and had better consider the fact) get more spin with the whippier cue while hitting the cue ball in the same spot.

Now keep in mind,that is my experience.My highly repeatable experience fwiw.You may well be right,but it is contrary to what I consider to be fact based on my own observations.Now I barely hover above banger status and have not had the lessons and experience to say I'm right as a whole.

But If I pull ol whippy out and I'm shooting for two o clock,its gonna be a bit closer to the center to achieve the same result as ol stiffy.
Click to expand...

Can you share the make of the cue that hits stiff and has a 12mm tip and a pro taper. This is the combination I want but everyone tells me it will be too whippy.

Alex
 
stiff taper

when i got my 2nd lathe fron hightower, the taper bar was pre set. the shafts i cut have more of a billiard style taper than a pool style taper. less like the long pro, same size 10 to 14 inches down the shaft, and more of a v shape. i started using these shafts on my wood pin cues and customers seem to aprove. some still wants me to to use the pro style taper. i guess its just what you are acustom to using. i learned to play using old bar cues and not many of them had a pro taper. i believe there is a market for the skinny whippy cues, but i prefer a more solid hit, i believe the stiff taper i use gives me a much more accurare shot. imo pocketing the ball is much more important that being able to get a lot of juice on the ball, and i believe i can do that with a stiffer shaft. chuck
 
Just so you know

The original pro taper was 10"
The normal pro taper now is 13"
13-15" is long pro taper
15-17" is extra long pro taper

These have increased because player's bridges have increased over the years. Hope this helps you understand a little better.
 
McChen said:
i don't think shaft taper is necessarily related to the amount of spin you get. look at carom for example. the cues have a very stiff taper and those guys spin the ball like crazy. or snooker. if you want good spin, you just need a well maintained, properly shaped tip and a good stroke.
Click to expand...


they play on faster cloth and heated tables
 
I don't think you can compare (effectively) Pool shafts with Snooker or Carom shafts.

Snooker - Uses smaller balls and a significantly smaller tip diameter to match the smaller CB... A Conical taper for this shaft may be a better fit since a pro taper may now have way too much whip for any type of control. (in comparison a conical shaft taper on cue set up really thin for snooker balls may have the same amount of whip as a Pro Taper cue set up for Pool balls)

Carome - Obviously the balls are bigger and heavier... Since they are heavier a Pro Taper set up for playing regular sized pool balls may have too much whip for effective control of Carome balls... Thus a stiffer Conical taper may be ideal for max spin on Carome balls...


The way I see it is...Once you remove the material from the shaft, you can not put it back....

I would suggest getting a stock 13mm shaft and take it to a known good cue maker and have him/her taper it for you the way you want it.

I would suggest that the rule of thumb to follow is...

Conical Taper - As you take the shaft down but maintain a Conical taper it will gradually get a little more whip

Pro Taper - The more you take it down and the longer the "stretch" on the taper...The faster it will get whippy.

I think you will find a happy medium for you that gets you both decent action on the CB and good controle over deflection/squirt.

NOTE: I have seen Mike Massey use specific cues for MAX draw shots...and then switch to different cues for other trick shots that require more accuracy and less "action"......This leads me to believe that there is indeed a difference...
 
I think it's all up to the individual. I played with a long taper for a while (X shaft, sniper tip) But when I got my Josey, I played with it's standard shaft, talisman tip, find I prefer that now. But then, I don't use much english...prefer just center ball, stop-follow-draw. My skill isn't developed well enough to use english well, I guess. Whenever I go past "just the basics", my miss percentage climbs...
 
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