Straight Pool High Run

[Williebetmore]

Straight pool is clearly NOT the answer to fix this. The game was normally played as a race to 150 points and it seems there were TONNES of players that could run a 150 and out often and as such the first person who gets the open shot or makes a tough pot is suddenly going to sit their opponent in their seat for the rest of the match.

Celtic,
I respectfully (and totally) disagree with your assessment of the ease of high runs in straight pool. I would have to agree with SJM that on tight equipment you will not be seeing these frequent high runs - even by extremely talented ball pocketers. Danny DiLiberto told me that on tight equipment, even the top 9-ball players would have to get extremely lucky to run a 150 without dedicating themselves to the game - I believe him. With extremely loose pockets all games are easy for the pro's

I would disagree with SJM about elevating 8-ball to the championship game (not that it is our decision). It should be 14.1 (with 45 second shot clock and 1 or 2 extensions per rack)!!! By abandoning this game we have lost 100 years of history and tradition. Eight ball has too many different rule sets, too many ways to lose, and that worst feature of all - the power break. In a match between Troy Frank and Francisco Bustamante on Accu-Stats the player who broke the balls and had a shot won EVERY GAME. Very reminiscent of pro 9-ball where the outcome is basically determined by the somewhat random results of the opening break. These games are great for exhibitions of skill, but not great for competition. JMO.

P.S. - plus I don't like 8-ball that much, and I don't want to have to watch it all the time.

P.P.S. - maybe these power break games would be different if you had to call your shots - even on the break.

 

[T411]

Celtic,
I respectfully (and totally) disagree with your assessment of the ease of high runs in straight pool. I would have to agree with SJM that on tight equipment you will not be seeing these frequent high runs - even by extremely talented ball pocketers. Danny DiLiberto told me that on tight equipment, even the top 9-ball players would have to get extremely lucky to run a 150 without dedicating themselves to the game - I believe him. With extremely loose pockets all games are easy for the pro's

I would disagree with SJM about elevating 8-ball to the championship game (not that it is our decision). It should be 14.1 (with 45 second shot clock and 1 or 2 extensions per rack)!!! By abandoning this game we have lost 100 years of history and tradition. Eight ball has too many different rule sets, too many ways to lose, and that worst feature of all - the power break. In a match between Troy Frank and Francisco Bustamante on Accu-Stats the player who broke the balls and had a shot won EVERY GAME. Very reminiscent of pro 9-ball where the outcome is basically determined by the somewhat random results of the opening break. These games are great for exhibitions of skill, but not great for competition. JMO.

P.S. - plus I don't like 8-ball that much, and I don't want to have to watch it all the time.

P.P.S. - maybe these power break games would be different if you had to call your shots - even on the break.

There is actually a lot of strategy in the game of 8-ball. There is a lot more strategy in the game of 8-ball than 9-ball. I do like 14.1 but don’t be mistaken; you have to be able to think to play the game of 8-ball (to play it well anyway)

 

[pete lafond]

Celtic,
I respectfully (and totally) disagree with your assessment of the ease of high runs in straight pool.

I would disagree with SJM about elevating 8-ball to the championship game (not that it is our decision). .

I agree 100%. In competition many of they players become more conservative. You just do not see those high runs that often.

8 ball? Give me a break. Great game for the masses, especially kids, as eight balls design was to create game rules that would help balance players with varying capabilities. Good game for learning pool or just having fun like in leagues.

I would recommend 10 ball and 14.1 as games to be players when ranking players.

Just some thoughts.

 

[lewdo26]

8 ball? Give me a break. Great game for the masses, especially kids, as eight balls design was to create game rules that would help balance players with varying capabilities. Good game for learning pool or just having fun like in leagues.

With all due respect, Pete. If we are talking about BCA-rules 8 ball, it would be much more difficult for a weaker player to beat a stronger player than in 9 ball.

 

[pete lafond]

With all due respect, Pete. If we are talking about BCA-rules 8 ball, it would be much more difficult for a weaker player to beat a stronger player than in 9 ball.

I am talking about BCA rules, and yes stronger players in any pool game have the advantage. But 8 ball? Again, great for kids and leagues - its a fun game don't get me wrong. It was created to be a more balanced game.

 

[T411]

I agree 100%. In competition many of they players become more conservative. You just do not see those high runs that often.

8 ball? Give me a break. Great game for the masses, especially kids, as eight balls design was to create game rules that would help balance players with varying capabilities. Good game for learning pool or just having fun like in leagues.

I would recommend 10 ball and 14.1 as games to be players when ranking players.

Just some thoughts.

Wow, great game for the masses and kids…? I do understand why most people that do not play much pool play the game of eight ball. There are a lot of balls on the table to bang around and you do not have to get position on any one particular ball. But if you think the game of eight ball was designed as you say to help balance players with varying capabilities or a good game for learning pool or just having fun like in leagues, get with someone that really knows how this game is really played. The masses do not understand this game and not too many kids play this game well. I do think 10-ball is better than 9-ball.

 

[bruin70]

whatever the game,,,you have to start with AT LEAST a 10' tight pocket. what the players play on today is ridiculous and scoffed at by snooker players for good reason.

a 10' tight pocket requires two things,,,,,,great pocketing skills AND the need to be able to play better position to get closer to the OB's.

i see 8ball as making more sense for tv because all casual weekend players play "solids and stripes",,,so they will relate better. it's also tougher than 9ball.

i think though that 14.1 is the game to play,,,for all the reasons mentioned. actual tournament play bears out that running centuries doesn't simply happen. it is still difficult, and anyway, a 10' tight pocket would fix all that.

pool has reached a stage where it's getting too easy. no way should a hot A+ ever ever beat a pro.

 

[pete lafond]

pool has reached a stage where it's getting too easy. no way should a hot A+ ever ever beat a pro.

I think that 10 ball is a cure and keep 14.1. I don not think we need to change equipment, just make the games require more skills. If the 10 goes down on the break, spot and keep shooting.

Everyone at all levels should play on the same standard equipment. Otherwise the time your finished, the tables will be so large that pool halls would only have one table. Or pockets so tight that most players would require 5 hours to play one game.

Just a thought.

 

[lewdo26]

I am talking about BCA rules, and yes stronger players in any pool game have the advantage. But 8 ball? Again, great for kids and leagues - its a fun game don't get me wrong. It was created to be a more balanced game.

"...and yes stronger players in any pool game have the advantage." Agreed. "It [8 ball] was created to be a more balanced game." Disagree. I think 9 ball is way more "balanced" than 8 ball. I'll paraphrase my earlier statement (and it does not mean what is meant by your first quote): If a player of differing capabilities play each other, the weaker player has a greater chance to win (for an upset) in the game of 9 ball than in the game of 8 ball. But I say that, assuming that the stronger player knows some basic things about 8 ball strategy, which many 9 ballers (even accomplished ones) don't. Like 14.1, 8 ball requires a certain amount of theoretical knowledge before you are capable to play it correctly. Execution alone won't do.

That being said, I think 14.1 should be brought back as the championship game. Celtic's idea of rotation (with modified rules) is also interesting. That is not to say, however, that a change in games will make pool a popular game overnight. That is a much more complicated outcome.

 

[lewdo26]

Eight ball has too many different rule sets, too many ways to lose, and that worst feature of all - the power break. In a match between Troy Frank and Francisco Bustamante on Accu-Stats the player who broke the balls and had a shot won EVERY GAME. Very reminiscent of pro 9-ball where the outcome is basically determined by the somewhat random results of the opening break.

Willie, according to Phil Capelle, in that same tournament, 44% of the racks were run from the break. At the opposite end of the Troy Frank-Bustamante match, there was the Reyes-Bustamante match, one game of which took 14 innings to conclude.
But, like you, I think 14.1 in tough equipment is the way to go. I'll also say that those 9 ballers wouldn't want any of you in either straight or 8 ball. Try and tell them what a neutral ball is and they'll think you're talking quantum physics!

 

[Williebetmore]

But 8 ball? Again, great for kids and leagues - its a fun game don't get me wrong.

Pete,
YES!!! I wish I had phrased it that way.

 

[Williebetmore]

Willie, according to Phil Capelle, in that same tournament, 44% of the racks were run from the break. At the opposite end of the Troy Frank-Bustamante match, there was the Reyes-Bustamante match, one game of which took 14 innings to conclude.

Lewdo,
I didn't mean to imply that all 8-ball games would be break and run (though there is a lot of it). As you have correctly pointed out there are definitely some strategic battles in 8-ball (but unfortunately less likely the more skilled the players are). I have an article that describes one of Bustamante's 8 ball games as lasting 35 minutes (one rack). If I wanted to watch players bunt balls back and forth I would go watch some straight rail billiards or one pocket (or perhaps go watch some paint dry). Even great straight pool players have trouble making more than 2 or 3 safeties in a row without giving up a shot opportunity.

 

[pete lafond]

I do not have the statistics, but just from pure observation (and I will stand corrected for supporting stats) more often the weaker 8 ball player does win than in nine ball. This is not meant as one game played, a race here is implied.

Yes there are extending capabilities with 8 ball as with other games as well that enable you to employ higher skills. But I am saying eight ball is a fun game. I just do not agree it should be considered a pro tour game. I also agree that 9 ball also should not be a pro tour game unless they change to 10 ball or something like that. I can not change this, this is just my opinion. All tour games should be challenging and all players should have the opportunity to pocket the same balls. Eight ball does very little to allow a player to get back into the game if he is chasing the eight because of bad luck. It becomes unbalanced at this point. Game is now boring except if it a weeker player on your team is playing a stronger player who is chasing the eight ball. Again, great for kids and great for leagues.

 

[Teacherman]

The question of stronger beating weaker, and in which games, depends on how stronger or how weaker.

An APA 2 or 3 has no chance to beat an APA 7 in 8 ball. Has a slim chance in 9 ball. In both scenarios, the odds of the weak player winning are very small.

An APA 5 or 6 has a better chance of defeating a 7 in 8 ball than 9 ball.

A similar thing applies to giving up the 8 ball as a spot in 9 ball. Between two C or D players, one giving up the 8 ball to the other is a HUGE spot. Why? Because there are still innings left when they get to the 8.

Between two good players, the 8 is a small spot.

 

[Bobby]

Disagree, Celtic. There were tons of players that could run a hundred on ordinary equipment, but few could do it on tight equipment under tournament conditions.

Entrie US Opens would occasionally include only two or three centruies.
Nick Varner won the 1981 World 14.1 Championship without a century.

As somebody who attended ninie wqorld championship straight pool events, I can tell you that all 50 ball runs on that tight equipment were understood to be outstanding.

Balls per inning is a strange puppy in straight pool becasue safeties count as zero, but back then only the top three or four would have a BPI > 10. At his best, Sigel managed about 13 for a whole event, and before him, Mosconi had averaged a 15. Most players were in the 4 to 7 range, meaning that typical races to 150 consisted of about 30 innings. Even for the truly elite, games still tended to last an average of about 12 to 15 innings.

The truth is that a race to 150 on tight equipment was really quite a long race, and the cream nearly always rose to the top becase of it.

This thread had focus on what the elite can and could do on ordinary equipment in practice conditions, and not what the elite could do on tight equipment under world championship competition conditions.

Important not to confuse one for the other. There were many that could run 200 in practice that went a pool lifetime without a century in world championship play.

All these points aside, however, I agree that straight IS NOT the game that should decide the world champion. I have always believed that the world championship should be decided by the only game played by almost all recreational players, and that would be eight ball.

I agree with you SJM, I would like to see 8-ball
become a championship game. A few years ago, 2002
I think, they had an 8-ball pro event at Valley
Forge and I watched every round of the event, and
I saw some really great matches. The pockets seemed
fairly tight and there weren't as many break and
runs as one might think. A lot of strategy and
safety's. The final with Troy Frank beating Mika
was top-notch!

 

[lewdo26]

Eight ball does very little to allow a player to get back into the game if he is chasing the eight because of bad luck. It becomes unbalanced at this point. Game is now boring except if it a weeker player on your team is playing a stronger player who is chasing the eight ball. Again, great for kids and great for leagues.

Pete, you hit the nail on the head as to why the game of 8 ball is so misunderstood. If the "stronger" player winds up chasing the 8 ball, it isn't because of bad luck, it's because he doesn't know a thing about 8 ball strategy (I don't care how good his shotmaking is). A seasoned 8 ball player knows that making balls is a DISADVANTAGE unless the percentages are stacked in his favor to run out to the last ball.

I've witnessed it happen a million times. A good shotmaker will run 7 balls, leave his problem ball for last, lose, and complain about the game of 8 ball. It isn't the game that is deficient, but his strategic thinking (or lack thereof). Yet this is what folks think 8 ball is... If they took time to watch a wheathered strategist at work playing 8 ball instead of bar pool, I think they'd be surprised by the sheer strategic beauty of the game. It's counterintuitive... to players who are unfamiliar to 8 ball strategy, it looks like the guy with the least balls on the table is winning. But it's actually the opposite.

 

[lewdo26]

Lewdo,
I didn't mean to imply that all 8-ball games would be break and run (though there is a lot of it). As you have correctly pointed out there are definitely some strategic battles in 8-ball (but unfortunately less likely the more skilled the players are). I have an article that describes one of Bustamante's 8 ball games as lasting 35 minutes (one rack). If I wanted to watch players bunt balls back and forth I would go watch some straight rail billiards or one pocket (or perhaps go watch some paint dry). Even great straight pool players have trouble making more than 2 or 3 safeties in a row without giving up a shot opportunity.

Willie, if you don't like strategic battles, hey, different strokes for different folks... We are of the same sensibility when it comes to the need of straight pool getting more recognition, and that's most important.

I just can't hold my tongue when I hear condescending comments on 8 ball by 9 BALL PLAYERS. 9 ball has nothing on 8 ball, really. And it's actually closer to straight pool than 9 ball is. Since you are straight pool player, however, I think you have the right to make derogatory comments on 8 ball, or 9 ball... One pocket however, is another kettle of fish.

 

[Teacherman]

Willie, if you don't like strategic battles, hey, different strokes for different folks... We are of the same sensibility when it comes to the need of straight pool getting more recognition, and that's most important.

I just can't hold my tongue when I hear condescending comments on 8 ball by 9 BALL PLAYERS. 9 ball has nothing on 8 ball, really. And it's actually closer to straight pool than 9 ball is. Since you are straight pool player, however, I think you have the right to make derogatory comments on 8 ball, or 9 ball... One pocket however, is another kettle of fish.

May be more strategy in 8 ball. Not sure I buy that........I'll think about it. But if you want to develop skills.............play something other than 8 Ball.

 

[Rickw]

I agree with Lewdo, there is a lot of strategy that can be employed playing 8 ball. I don't like the game very much as a player or a spectator but I think that is mainly because I haven't played it that much. I play it once a week now in a bar league and can see that I have a lot to learn about the strategies involved. For instance, I saw a veteran player on the 8 getting position to shoot it at a pocket where one of his opponent's balls was hanging in (pool balls that is) and he called the 8 for that pocket and the 8 hit the other ball, the ball went into the pocket and the 8 followed it and he won the game. I thought he was nuts at first and then realized that was a very seasoned move. In other words, I learned something.

 

[hobokenapa]

strategy

It depends what type of audience you are aiming at. If you take the regular dumb, coach-potato American, they don't want to see safety. They want break and runs, and fast matches. Hence why we play 9-ball with big pockets. If you want to please the purists, then straight pool (or even 8-ball) with tight tight pockets is the way to go. These are both strategy games that require a player to play great safes and to plan out his run (rather than be told what it is in 9-ball). 9-ball players are easy to beat for a good 8-ball player. Let him go for his hero run out and then just tidy up after he is done.

Have any of you ever watched the World Snooker Championship? The BBC show all 17 days live. That's over 100 hours of coverage, and also a 1 hour highlights show every evening. ESPN has about two hours for an entire pool tournament. They are not going to fill that with a game that has a lot of safety. I think Brits have more patience. They can watch snooker for hours, and a cricket match goes on for five days. American's just don't have the patience.

If you add up the total TV exposure for snooker, it's so much more than pool and that equates to there being much more money in the game. As a result, you have the 9-ball tour where top pros earn peanuts. In the UK, top snooker players are millionaires. Young kids get lured to snooker not just for the game, but for the money. I'm not going to open another snooker v pool debate here, but I don't see any of our pool players in the same league ability-wise as Ronnie O'Sullivan.

The World Snooker championship can only realistically be won by about three or four players rather than practically anyone in a 128-person 9-ball field. There have been shocks but very rarely. When a new guy wins, he tends to dominate for years (Davis, Hendry, O'Sullivan). The best player in the world wins. Period. This is down in large part to the long races. The final is race to 18 frames. It takes two DAYS. Total match time is probably around 10-12 hours. A 9-ball match race to 7 is just ludicrous. Make it a race to 50 and the best player may win out. But then... no-one in America would watch.

To truly find the best pool player, you need a game that requires great strategy, shot making, and positional play, and played over a few hours. I don't know what this game is but I feel it's a combination of straight pool and snooker with very tight pockets. None of this hitting the rail half way down and the ball still going in, and only the last ball wins, nonsense.

A different option would be to combine 9-ball and straight pool. Kinda what the APA does in its 9-ball but make the game fairer. One point per ball, two for the 9. Race to 100 or 150. Scratch minus 1 point. Allow pushouts.

Bottom line is the harder the game is, the more likely better players win.