Straight Pool High Run

[pete lafond]

Pete, you hit the nail on the head as to why the game of 8 ball is so misunderstood. If the "stronger" player winds up chasing the 8 ball, it isn't because of bad luck, it's because he doesn't know a thing about 8 ball strategy (I don't care how good his shotmaking is). A seasoned 8 ball player knows that making balls is a DISADVANTAGE unless the percentages are stacked in his favor to run out to the last ball.

I've witnessed it happen a million times. A good shotmaker will run 7 balls, leave his problem ball for last, lose, and complain about the game of 8 ball. It isn't the game that is deficient, but his strategic thinking (or lack thereof). Yet this is what folks think 8 ball is... If they took time to watch a wheathered strategist at work playing 8 ball instead of bar pool, I think they'd be surprised by the sheer strategic beauty of the game. It's counterintuitive... to players who are unfamiliar to 8 ball strategy, it looks like the guy with the least balls on the table is winning. But it's actually the opposite.

Your making quite a few assumptions here. If we are to get into a discussion about how to play 8 ball, or lessons if you will, we can go on for a long time. Rather when I made my statement it was based on knowledgeable players.

I do not care how good you are as everyone on this planet misses, even your weathered strategist . 8 ball is a dumb game when it comes to chasing the 8 ball. When this occurs, it only becomes exciting for the lesser player. Again fun for kids and leagues.

I found that the players that are week on kicks, shot making and position enjoy 8 ball the most. I have seen so many tournaments won by lesser skilled players.

 

[bruin70]

It depends what type of audience you are aiming at. If you take the regular dumb, coach-potato American, they don't want to see safety. They want break and runs, and fast matches. Hence why we play 9-ball with big pockets. ...............
Bottom line is the harder the game is, the more likely better players win.

i'd prefer seeing the cream rise, so i think today's game is too easy.

but the average, dumb, couch potato american doesn't care to watch pool in the first place. so fast, break and run 9ball means nothing to him. this concept is what pool tv producers THINK is what's necessary to popularize the game. since the general public DOESN'T watch pool anyway, then tv is targeting the wrong audience with the wrong game.

 

[hobokenapa]

This concept is what pool tv producers THINK is what's necessary to popularize the game. since the general public DOESN'T watch pool anyway, then tv is targeting the wrong audience with the wrong game.

Excellent point. You'd think they'd try something different yet we get games that go the other way like 7-ball with ball in hand after every miss. But TV Producers must do market research and believe this is what the public wants to see.

I don't really watch pool on TV myself (unless the TiVo picks something up) although I did enjoy watching the men's UPA tournament recently. No disrepect to the women, but if I watch a sport, I want to see fantastic skills that I can marvel at. That is only with the men's game.

I got an Accu-Stats tape of a 14.1 tournament. I think it may have been the 2000 US Open. I'd never seen a Straight Pool match before then. I have to say that although I was fascinated, I was disappointed. The pockets seemed to be like buckets. It was almost like they were making it easy just to get high runs, where surely people watching Straight want to see tight pockets and the pros really showing their skills. It worrying when even Straight Pool is '9-ball-ised'.

 

[sjm]

I got an Accu-Stats tape of a 14.1 tournament. I think it may have been the 2000 US Open. I'd never seen a Straight Pool match before then. I have to say that although I was fascinated, I was disappointed. The pockets seemed to be like buckets.

Yes, that was the 2000 US Open straight pool, which I attended, and the tables were really loose. It was defintiely disappointing, and it did seem to greatly reduce the edge that would normally be enjoyed by those playing the patterns well enough to always get tight on the break shot. One thing I remember from the tight pocket era of straight pool is that missed break shots were numerous, and that only the truly elite seemed to make every break shot. At the 2000 US Open, very few break shots were missed.

Straight pool on loose pockets just doesn't measure up when championship caliber players are involved.

 

[Celtic]

Straight pool on loose pockets just doesn't measure up when championship caliber players are involved.

Kind of amusing that everyone "strongly disagree's" with me and then someone comes up with a example of modern straight pool played on normal modern loose tables that prove my point and it is dismissed as the wrong equippment. If you simply want to make the tables WAY tighter and more difficult then we can make 9-ball a much harder game as well.

8-ball would be a better game then 9-ball in that watching it is ALOT more entertaining. You see more of a complete game and strategy. The problem with it as has been stated is that it is all about the break at the top level, hell even I when I break well expect to get the runout and have basically ran out sets in my matches in Vegas and the like when my opponent was not making balls on their breaks, and I am not a pro by any means, those guys are better then me. Of course that was on a bar box, but I have found 9-foots and 8-ball to be just as easy because what you loose in the ease of potting you make up for in the lack of clusters and pin point shape requirements.

I still think as I have for years on this board that a 15 ball rotation game with a point per a ball would be the best game for competition.

 

[vapoolplayer]

i've noticed some people on this thread referring to snooker..............

maybe its just me.....but why are snooker and pool compared???

two totally different games.

yes there are six pockets on a slate table.

but its two ENTIRELY different games and strategies.

you won't see a power draw or force follow in a snooker game, and you won't see the shotmaking (sounds stupid, but if you haven't tried snooker, the shotmaking is far more precise) that is required in snooker in pool.

two totally different worlds, and combining the two would not give you the best player.

maybe i'm alone in this, but i play both and its two TOTALLY DIFFERENT games.

thanks

VAP

 

[nail]

Yes, that was the 2000 US Open straight pool, which I attended, and the tables were really loose. It was defintiely disappointing, and it did seem to greatly reduce the edge that would normally be enjoyed by those playing the patterns well enough to always get tight on the break shot. One thing I remember from the tight pocket era of straight pool is that missed break shots were numerous, and that only the truly elite seemed to make every break shot. At the 2000 US Open, very few break shots were missed.

Straight pool on loose pockets just doesn't measure up when championship caliber players are involved.

I was there too. And as loose as those tables were, nobody ran out. Robles had the high run of 148. Some of the best players in the world were there and still no run outs. 14.1 is still a tough game even though the conditions (equipment) are easier. I would definitly like to see the tables for major tournaments as tight as possible or better yet, played like it was when the game was born; on a 5x10 with the pockets adjusted for the modern balls. There was rarely ever a run out on the 5x10s. Then you'd see the cream come to the surface.
nail

 

[bud green]

Although snooker players would obviously murder pool players who tried to compete at the top level, being a good snooker player doesn't always mean you're going to start running out 9-ball racks with ease. The heavier balls, use of more english, and more congested space require an adjustment. Steve Davis is a snooker legend but his pool game is nothing special compared to top pool pros like Cory, Parica,etc...

I actually like eight ball but even mediocre players break and run out quite a bit without having to stroke a shot. I'm nowhere near as good as a lot of players on this board (seems everyone here runs 70-200+ at straight pool) but my friend shot (kicked)once in five games last time we played eight ball. I've never come close to running five racks at nine ball because harder shots come up more frequently. Play with your opposite hand and see which one you think is harder; I can run out every now and then at eight ball but look foolish trying to play nine ball most of the time.

Does anyone like last pocket eight ball? This game has a lot of strategy and is similair in some ways to one pocket in the end game. (Seems like the rules for when the eight ball is hanging in a hole aren't polished though.)

I do think that eight ball would be better than nine ball on ESPN at least. The commentary usually sucks anyway compared to Accu-Stats so why not put on a game every bar dweller knows. If it stops them from trying scoop jump shots on real tables it would be worth it right there.

 

[yobagua]

I attended every match at that 2000 14.1 tournament. I was sadly disappointed that the equipment was not up to snuff. IMO Soquet would not have won the tournament that year as he made some shots that missed by half a diamond that went in. He got away with that several times. I think that the womens tournament that went on concurrently really benefited from the "buckets". The highest run was 60 something by Fisher. No other woman came close while the men were raining in hundreds. I think this is the reason of the pocket size.
The great matches were played in a pretournament qualifyer at the now defunct Amsterdam/East. The tables were much tighter and you got to see Grady, Jack Colavito, Johnny Ervolino, Danny Barouty (the winner), Bob Maidhof, etc. play some great tough matches.

 

[bruin70]

Although snooker players would obviously murder pool players who tried to compete at the top level, being a good snooker player doesn't always mean you're going to start running out 9-ball racks with ease. The heavier balls, use of more english, and more congested space require an adjustment. Steve Davis is a snooker legend but his pool game is nothing special compared to top pool pros like Cory, Parica,etc...
.

i think the only advantage snooker players would have in 14.1 is that they play an essentially striaght pool-type game. so the basics are there,,,,small moves, simple strategy, and didn't mosconi always favor center ball.

their pocketing isn't an advantage, imo, because the pros here pocket, and the game is all about positioning for easy shots anyway. snooker players would be dumbing their game down to pocket pool, not pool players being forced to play on tougher equipment.

 

[CaptainJR]

My high run. Hmmm I think it was about 200. Yup 200 at least. I didn't have the money to pay up so while he was shooting 116 or so. I took off and ran right over the Market St bridge and I know that this bridge is at least 200' high.

 

[FLICKit]

I am talking about BCA rules, and yes stronger players in any pool game have the advantage. But 8 ball? Again, great for kids and leagues - its a fun game don't get me wrong. It was created to be a more balanced game.

In many ways 8-ball is easy, but in many ways 9-ball is even easier.

8-ball
aspects easier than 9-ball
- obviously don't often have to get precise leaves. Mess up a leave, and you can select a different ball.
- have many options for starting off your run, and managing your run
- more options for getting breakouts

aspects more difficult than 9-ball
- slop factor reduced in 8-ball
- can not slop in the 8-ball in any pocket at any time. May even have to be cautious of 8 ball.
- more balanced (offensive and defensive)
- run-outs are difficult due to the obstacles
- failed run-out winds up giving advantage to opponent
- more clusters requiring you to break-out
- even if mess up, opponent still has to make their balls in order to win

9-ball
aspects harder than 8-ball
- mess up a leave, and you still have to shoot at it.
- can only start on one ball, and can only shoot at one ball at a time. May be forced to take longer shots, shoot combos, kicks, or caroms
- fewer options for breakouts

aspects easier than 8-ball
- can slop any ball around and still continue.
- can slop in the 9-ball, or get easy early 9-ball shots (9 ball ducks).
- no fear of knocking in the 9-ball by accident
- more offensive, less balls on the table (less obstacles to work around, even less and less as the game progresses), 1 good ball in hand is usually enough to run out the table.
- easier to get run-out positions after the break
- fewer cluster requiring you to break out
- mess up, can result in a 1 shot victory - no need to earn it



There are many other differences between the games at all levels. The point is that there are pluses and minuses to both games. If you want to get better at pool, you have to develop your abilities in all pool variations (8-ball, 9-ball, 14.1, one pocket, bank pool, last pocket...). Each has some skillsets to learn and benefit from. Would be interesting to see the pros playing all game variations on TV. That way no matter which is your favorite, you'd be able to find it. Plus, may benefit from learning how the pros play them all.

Would agree though that the pool conditions should have a high degree of difficulty. Tighter pockets - no buckets. Sorta like pro golf, you wouldn't expect to see them playing the masters on an easy executive course. Golfers usually play under very tough conditions (super fast greens, terrible roughs, super sand traps, false plains - that look safe but hit there and ball will go into trouble spot like sand, rough, or water). Therefore it would be interesting to see pro pool players in tougher conditions like a 5x10 table - at least sometimes.

Maybe 80% of the pro pool matches should be either 1 or 2 game variations (i.e. 9-ball and 14.1) with standard equipment and rules. And 20% should be wide open to various variations that'll appeal to the broad audiences.

 

[lewdo26]

Your making quite a few assumptions here. If we are to get into a discussion about how to play 8 ball, or lessons if you will, we can go on for a long time. Rather when I made my statement it was based on knowledgeable players.

I do not care how good you are as everyone on this planet misses, even your weathered strategist . 8 ball is a dumb game when it comes to chasing the 8 ball. When this occurs, it only becomes exciting for the lesser player. Again fun for kids and leagues.

I found that the players that are week on kicks, shot making and position enjoy 8 ball the most. I have seen so many tournaments won by lesser skilled players.

Pete Lafond, believe me, I'm not in a position to make assumptions about anyone's game. And please don't assume that I'm the wheathered 8 ball player to whom I referred in my post. I'm not. However, I've been in enough circles where 8 ball is scoffed at by 9 ball players, and, in the humble opinion of someone who took time to study the theory of the game (which most 9 ballers don't), that's unjustified. I think 8 ball is misunderstood because it is associated with recreational players.

I don't care if beginners like 8 ball better than 9 ball, or how badly they play it. That has nothing to do with the game itself. I'm referring to 8 ball played correctly, by experienced, savvy players. And from what I've been able to observe so far, having an experienced player chasing problem balls all over the table in 8 ball is as rare as having an experienced 9 ball player run balls 1 through 7, missing, and then leaving an easy out for his opponent. But of course, both scenarios occur every now and then.

I'm sure you've seen lesser skilled players win 8 ball tournaments. So did I... in 9 ball tournaments. There must be a reason why Efren wins 8 ball championships as consistently as he has. If the game itself favored weaker players, I guess we would have to rule Efren out.

 

[pete lafond]

I'm sure you've seen lesser skilled players win 8 ball tournaments. So did I... in 9 ball tournaments. There must be a reason why Efren wins 8 ball championships as consistently as he has. If the game itself favored weaker players, I guess we would have to rule Efren out.

I'm sure Efrin has fun with 8 ball.

One pocket, straight, 9 ball. These games enable players multiple options all the time. In 8 ball it is easy to have no options left when nearing the 8 ball with all of your opponents balls still on the table when you make a mistake. Bad roll, miscue resulting in bad position,.. if it gets out of control you can not play a worthwhile defensive shot unless your lucky enough to put the cue ball in jail using the 8 ball and your last ball. Kind of ridiculous at this point. Sort of like hitting the tennis ball to your opponent with his hands tied behind his back for the remainder of the game because he made one mistake. This is why 8 ball is fun for leagues and kids. It gives the weaker player a chance.

 

[sjm]

The biggest myth in pool is that 42 million play it. Yes, 42 million play eight ball, but only a few million play big-table nine ball.

Show the tens of millions a they are familiar with and maybe they will watch. Show them anything else and you cut out 90% of the potential fans.

 

[lewdo26]

In many ways 8-ball is easy, but in many ways 9-ball is even easier.

8-ball
aspects easier than 9-ball
- obviously don't often have to get precise leaves. Mess up a leave, and you can select a different ball.
- have many options for starting off your run, and managing your run
- more options for getting breakouts

aspects more difficult than 9-ball
- slop factor reduced in 8-ball
- can not slop in the 8-ball in any pocket at any time. May even have to be cautious of 8 ball.
- more balanced (offensive and defensive)
- run-outs are difficult due to the obstacles
- failed run-out winds up giving advantage to opponent
- more clusters requiring you to break-out
- even if mess up, opponent still has to make their balls in order to win

9-ball
aspects harder than 8-ball
- mess up a leave, and you still have to shoot at it.
- can only start on one ball, and can only shoot at one ball at a time. May be forced to take longer shots, shoot combos, kicks, or caroms
- fewer options for breakouts

aspects easier than 8-ball
- can slop any ball around and still continue.
- can slop in the 9-ball, or get easy early 9-ball shots (9 ball ducks).
- no fear of knocking in the 9-ball by accident
- more offensive, less balls on the table (less obstacles to work around, even less and less as the game progresses), 1 good ball in hand is usually enough to run out the table.
- easier to get run-out positions after the break
- fewer cluster requiring you to break out
- mess up, can result in a 1 shot victory - no need to earn it



There are many other differences between the games at all levels. The point is that there are pluses and minuses to both games. If you want to get better at pool, you have to develop your abilities in all pool variations (8-ball, 9-ball, 14.1, one pocket, bank pool, last pocket...). Each has some skillsets to learn and benefit from. Would be interesting to see the pros playing all game variations on TV. That way no matter which is your favorite, you'd be able to find it. Plus, may benefit from learning how the pros play them all.

Would agree though that the pool conditions should have a high degree of difficulty. Tighter pockets - no buckets. Sorta like pro golf, you wouldn't expect to see them playing the masters on an easy executive course. Golfers usually play under very tough conditions (super fast greens, terrible roughs, super sand traps, false plains - that look safe but hit there and ball will go into trouble spot like sand, rough, or water). Therefore it would be interesting to see pro pool players in tougher conditions like a 5x10 table - at least sometimes.

Maybe 80% of the pro pool matches should be either 1 or 2 game variations (i.e. 9-ball and 14.1) with standard equipment and rules. And 20% should be wide open to various variations that'll appeal to the broad audiences.

FLICKit, I'm going to agree with every syllable. I actually think 14.1 should have the priority. It's kind of hard for me to understand how 14.1 could be thought of as boring. Even for audiences unfamiliar to pool. Go figure what promoters were thinking in chosing 9 ball as the standard pro game. It obviously hasn't worked in making the game more popular.

 

[turquoisecrazy]

FLICKit, I'm going to agree with every syllable. I actually think 14.1 should have the priority. It's kind of hard for me to understand how 14.1 could be thought of as boring. Even for audiences unfamiliar to pool. Go figure what promoters were thinking in chosing 9 ball as the standard pro game. It obviously hasn't worked in making the game more popul

 

[pete lafond]

The biggest myth in pool is that 42 million play it. Yes, 42 million play eight ball, but only a few million play big-table nine ball.

Yes your 100% correct. Except there are no fans to speak of. A lot of people ski casually going down hills, fun for the skier but no fun to watch on TV. On TV they show races, jumps,... now that's exciting. That sells in that sport. Maybe 8 ball on TV would be as boring as casual downhill skiing. We don't know. What if we tried it and it gave a more negative effect to Billiards, this stuff happens to products marketed incorrectly. High talented marketing research is really needed here. Your opinion is a very valid one and I believe mine is too. Who knows?

 

[pete lafond]

Go figure what promoters were thinking in chosing 9 ball as the standard pro game. It obviously hasn't worked in making the game more popular.

You might just have something there, or possibly the fact that these things are not televised live might also hurt. Just don't know.

 

[sjm]

The biggest myth in pool is that 42 million play it. Yes, 42 million play eight ball, but only a few million play big-table nine ball.

Yes your 100% correct. Except there are no fans to speak of. A lot of people ski casually going down hills, fun for the skier but no fun to watch on TV. On TV they show races, jumps,... now that's exciting. That sells in that sport. Maybe 8 ball on TV would be as boring as casual downhill skiing. We don't know. What if we tried it and it gave a more negative effect to Billiards, this stuff happens to products marketed incorrectly. High talented marketing research is really needed here. Your opinion is a very valid one and I believe mine is too. Who knows?

Nice post, Pete. I think you've hit the nail on the head.