Many things can “go wrong” with a stroke. For examples, see all the videos here:
STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Many things can “go wrong” with a stroke. For examples, see all the videos here:
Most difficult thing to learn about stroke mechanics is to move it from practice table to game table. IMHO ofc.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I don't think the cue ball cares, but deceleration is probably the result of other problems, like a lack of confidence in the shot and inaccurate cuing. Or maybe the loss of tension in the muscles changes the alignment of the arm and cue.
I’ve got a love/hate relationship with your videos.
I feel like on many of your videos you may be ~technically~ correct but your premises don’t hold up in real life play. This video (amongst a few others) would fall into that category.
Back in real life you absolutely feel the tip hold on to the cueball longer on draw and follow shots just like Joe Davis’s book explains.
Barry is a teacher (I’m a pool player, not a snooker player so I hadn’t heard of him until now) and after reviewing his material and the video in question…I thought he explained it exactly how you should explain it to someone learning how to feel the shot.
AND…he was referring to a draw shot. But your test just showed Pubo hitting a normal 3 lengths “lag” shot on a table that rolls off a full diamond lol.
I feel like on many of your videos you may be ~technically~ correct but your premises don’t hold up in real life play. This video (amongst a few others) would fall into that category.
Back in real life you absolutely feel the tip hold on to the cueball longer on draw and follow shots just like Joe Davis’s book explains.
Barry is a teacher (I’m a pool player, not a snooker player so I hadn’t heard of him until now) and after reviewing his material and the video in question…I thought he explained it exactly how you should explain it to someone learning how to feel the shot.
AND…he was referring to a draw shot. But your test just showed Pubo hitting a normal 3 lengths “lag” shot on a table that rolls off a full diamond lol.
good question. I think I'm just hitting that shot with less speed, not necessarily decelerating if that makes sense..see what doc says tho
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Not necessarily. You are just hitting a draw shot that runs out of spin before it reaches the object ball. If decelerating is how you achieve that then that's how you should shoot it but the cue ball doesn't care. It only knows the contact point, speed, and direction of the tip.
Thanks Doc.....I still wonder if shaft taper/flex plays any role....If you ever need a new project study I guess.....to add to all the great ones you have already done....
I think a lot of things boil down to mental perception.....We "think" we are doing something but actually not quite.
For instance....Tiger Woods used a "clock" system for his short game....He knew that if he took his gap wedge back to 9-oclock he would hit the ball exactly X distance......However...He went on to say that the 9-oclock position was what (to him) felt like 9-oclock.....It may have very well been 10-10:30.......Same thing in pool can be applied for those that vary stroke length for speed of shot....You may think you are only taking the cue back 4 inches when in reality it is actually 3 or 5...
That is just one example...but I am sure there are many other things we think we do...when in reality it is something different...but our mental perception carries us through.
As it relates to stroke "timing"....I have always used a verbal metronome to practice my tempo.....My chosen word is Dollar Bills.....but any two syllable word and one syllable word will work.....The two syllable word is the backstroke...(a 2 beat backstroke)...the forward stroke is a single beat. This (to me) promotes a longer slower backstroke and a accelerating forward stroke.....Does this make a difference....apparently the proof is it does not.....but the mental perception of a good repeatable delivery is a good thing......I think
"Just because somebody says or write something doesn't mean that it's true"…
Truer words have never been spoken!
Another interesting video. Love the ultra slow mo.
Thanks!
Truer words have never been spoken!
Another interesting video. Love the ultra slow mo.
Thanks!
The CB is decelerating (due to the backspin), but the stroke into the ball should not be decelerating (assuming you want accurate and consistent speed control). The best way to control speed is to vary the stroke length, using the same smooth acceleration on every stroke. For more info, demonstrations, and advice on this topic, see:
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I am an instructor also, but I generally prefer using language that is both helpful and “technically correct.”
However, I appreciate how using some phrases that are technically wrong can still be helpful to students. For example, I often tell students to “accelerate through the ball.” This isn’t what actually happens (so it is “technically” wrong), but it helps them to not decelerate (which is bad, especially on draw shots).
The problem I have with Barry’s statements is he seems to be presenting them as “technically correct” facts. That is wrong and misleading, IMO.
We chose that speed and a center ball hit to make it easier to guarantee a consistent shot speed and tip contact point, while creating the different accelerations into the ball (which is not easy to do). BTW, tip contact times are even smaller with faster-speed shots, and draw shot tip contact times are not very different from center-ball hits. For more info and examples, see the videos and info here:
I’d love to see it measured. I suspect that its constants speed at worst.
Pool cue shaft stiffness has no effect on spin you can get. The old 'whippy Meucci gets more spin' is complete bs. Old Meucci Original's btw were not whippy. 'Softer' hit maybe but not whippy. I owned a few of them.Observation / Hypothesis......I have zero scientific leg to stand on so this is just a "pondering"
I notice at the 6:30 mark the good accelerating stroke ball picked up forward rotation before the others...That seems to be a significant difference IMO....I wonder if the same effect would happen on draw (struck in the same spot)
I wonder if there may be some difference (from timing) due to shaft flex....I can't see how that could be measured but I suppose high speed cameras could pick up the flex.
I know in Golf shaft flex/stiffness, make a big difference based on swing speed....You basically want the whippiest shaft you can control ....Shaft too stiff and the ball comes off like a brick....to whippy and you lose control.....(add innuendoes here gutter brains....)
I realize that the forces are applied in different directions between a Golf Club and Pool Cue....But I tend to want to think that shaft flex/taper etc....like in Golf play a significant role in the amount of "action" you get on the CB....and quite possibly could be a reason that some people swear they get better action from cue to cue or shaft to shaft....
Also a similar trade off in Pool....Perhaps a stiffer shaft....The CB comes off like a brick with the wrong type of stroke....whippy shaft...(AKA Meucci)...all kinds of CB action but hard to control.
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dquarasr
Registered
Not an instructor and also a C or D player so grains of salt and all that rot…
I equate a decelerating stroke with a tentative stroke. Being tentative introduces all kinds of mechanical imperfections. Muscles are usually not relaxed and therefore are subject to deviations from intended. My $0.02.
I equate a decelerating stroke with a tentative stroke. Being tentative introduces all kinds of mechanical imperfections. Muscles are usually not relaxed and therefore are subject to deviations from intended. My $0.02.
It should be a tension free throwing motion. If done correctly all this accel/decel geek stuff takes care of itself. People waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over-ANAL-yze this stuff.
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Thanks Doc.....I still wonder if shaft taper/flex plays any role....If you ever need a new project study I guess.....to add to all the great ones you have already done....
Shaft taper and stiffness definitely affect the “feel,” “hit,” “feedback,” and “playability” of a cue, and they also affect "endmass" and CB deflection, but not tip contact time or spin-generation capability (within reasonable ranges of tapers and stiffnesses).
Agreed. The mind is a powerful thing.
See "Ladies and Gentlemen" and "Peanut Butter and Jelly" here:
It especially applies to today's "political environment" and "social media."
Thank you, and you're welcome. I aim to swerve.
very good dave. i would like to add please.
the reason the pros get such good results is the same in all swing sports. many say its the follow through, which is correct.
1.**the results of a longer follow through do not change anything about the hit.**
2. **the longer follow through keeps your speed closer to constant for a longer period of time.**
so that your speed that hits the cueball is going to be closer to what you desire and more repeatable..
the reason the pros get such good results is the same in all swing sports. many say its the follow through, which is correct.
1.**the results of a longer follow through do not change anything about the hit.**
2. **the longer follow through keeps your speed closer to constant for a longer period of time.**
so that your speed that hits the cueball is going to be closer to what you desire and more repeatable..
Also: a short follow-through on a firm shot means you had to decelerate the cue abruptly, which requires force to pull backwards on the cue - likely starting before impact, and affecting the straightness / tip contact point at impact.