Thanks.
See my follow through resource page. The follow through is an indicator of a good stroke, not the cause of a good stroke.
STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Thanks.
See my follow through resource page. The follow through is an indicator of a good stroke, not the cause of a good stroke.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I think we can feel a difference in the feedback of the pool cue. I know I feel and hear a difference in different strokes. It might not hold up to scientific scrutiny but some of these "old wives tales" get us on the right track as mere humans to deliver a good stroke.
It's like telling a story about vampires to keep teenagers indoors at night. There are no vampires but it might stop unwanted pregnancy or getting in trouble with the law by being inside. A lot of old fairy tales have their merit, it's just not exactly for the reasons you would think.
Always good stuff, Dave. Thanks again for floating some “conceptual muddle” off the page to help players invest in what they really can control toward improvement. Stroke “timing” is vitally important, but it’s to be understood on its merits. The mind/muscle connection & the perception we develop of experiencing a good result is critical to our learning to repeatably execute across the range of requirements in a complex game. It really is amazing what our “computer” is capable of.
I think the accel/decel issue, whichever causes can be identified, really boils down to executing thru a given length of stroke. The break is a good example. If your length of stroke is too long for your execution capability, your power will be expended before contact - let alone the negative effects on accuracy.
Believing you can change the amount of tip contact time is clearly a waste of energy. We all know that feeling like a spring went off from one end of the cue thru the other when a shot is hit well. The result it produces with varying application of variables is where the magic lives.
I think the accel/decel issue, whichever causes can be identified, really boils down to executing thru a given length of stroke. The break is a good example. If your length of stroke is too long for your execution capability, your power will be expended before contact - let alone the negative effects on accuracy.
Believing you can change the amount of tip contact time is clearly a waste of energy. We all know that feeling like a spring went off from one end of the cue thru the other when a shot is hit well. The result it produces with varying application of variables is where the magic lives.
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Thanks.
You're welcome. I aim to swerve.
Agreed. Many of the reasons it is important are summarized and demonstrated here:
For Dave, just curious, does the 'length' of the follow-thru effect any aspect of a shot? Not concerning the close approximation of the CB to the OB.
Oikawa
Well-known member
It might cause steering of the cue off to either side if the decel is bad enough that you get muscle tension involved
Fortunately I was taught to respect my elders before I started competing with them. Few of them were as smart as my teenaged me. When they started discussing why something worked it was almost laughable. Some of their equipment was horrible. Then I competed with them and got my butt kicked most thoroughly!
Among other things, I think these findings apply most directly to a pendulum stroke. There are a handful of other useful strokes out there.
I would whether spend a few weeks with Barry Stark and his perceptions than with any of the "scientific" instructors with barely a fraction of his resume. He might or might not be right about why something happens, that it happens is unquestionable.
I was injured in hurricane Ida, my home and pool table destroyed. Trying to find a place to hang my hat behind tens of thousands of other people, just trying to survive, I got out of stroke. I got out to play a little with my niece on a nine foot Diamond. I couldn't help but notice the stroke and hit of the cue ball felt a little off. I also noticed that no matter how hard the shot, I knew it was in the pocket when the hit of tip on cue ball felt perfect.
Perception? Reality? What difference did it make when the ball just banked sweetly in a hole touching nothing but center pocket.
Up to the student to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. However, the student should also master the skill of nodding their head respectfully regardless of what a world class instructor is telling them. Some of the things that don't make sense today will make sense in a few months or years. A several times world champion told me something. I gave it an honest try, it didn't work for me. I didn't forget it though and six months later I gave it another try. Nope, still didn't work. It wasn't forgotten though. Several years after he had first told me the technique my skills had caught up enough for it to work for me.
If Barry Stark told me a rooster could tote a bale of cotton(about fifteen hundred pounds) I would be a bit skeptical in the back of my mind. At the same time, I would clear a spot for the rooster to set the cotton down.
Hu
Excellent post.Thanks Doc.....I still wonder if shaft taper/flex plays any role....If you ever need a new project study I guess.....to add to all the great ones you have already done....
I think a lot of things boil down to mental perception.....We "think" we are doing something but actually not quite.
For instance....Tiger Woods used a "clock" system for his short game....He knew that if he took his gap wedge back to 9-oclock he would hit the ball exactly X distance......However...He went on to say that the 9-oclock position was what (to him) felt like 9-oclock.....It may have very well been 10-10:30.......Same thing in pool can be applied for those that vary stroke length for speed of shot....You may think you are only taking the cue back 4 inches when in reality it is actually 3 or 5...
That is just one example...but I am sure there are many other things we think we do...when in reality it is something different...but our mental perception carries us through.
As it relates to stroke "timing"....I have always used a verbal metronome to practice my tempo.....My chosen word is Dollar Bills.....but any two syllable word and one syllable word will work.....The two syllable word is the backstroke...(a 2 beat backstroke)...the forward stroke is a single beat. This (to me) promotes a longer slower backstroke and an accelerating forward stroke.....Does this make a difference....apparently the proof is it does not.....but the mental perception of a good repeatable delivery is a good thing......I think
This discrepancy between what we think our body is doing and what it actually is doing can be the reason that in both golf and pool, when we try harder we play worse. Because what we are doing is trying to be more precise in our mental picture which forces our stroke or swing away from the proper alignment or movement.
An example would be if you believed that dropping the cue tip as you contacted the ball gave you more backspin. Because the tip is moving down and that imparts more spin. (In your mind)
When you are relaxed and shooting around it probably makes you contact the CB a bit lower - which does, indeed, impart more backspin and confirms this mental model.
Then you are in an important match and you need a lot of backspin. You are going to make sure your tip is moving down at contact because that’s what you think gives you backspin. Resulting probably in a miscue at a critical time.
You will think you folded under the pressure when in reality your mental model didn’t match what your body was doing.
Same shaft was used throughout.
This is why, when you have a deliberate stroke, you can use a shaft with lower deflection:: like 11.5mm LD or 11.0mm solid.I know in Golf shaft flex/stiffness, make a big difference based on swing speed....You basically want the whippiest shaft you can control ....Shaft too stiff and the ball comes off like a brick....to whippy and you lose control.....(add innuendoes here gutter brains....)
It is also why, when you don't have a sufficiently deliberate stroke you tend to like larger tip sizes: like 12.5mm and up.
Obviously, nothing about the follow-through affects a shot directly (since it occurs long after the CB is gone), but the follow-through is a good indicator of a smooth, accelerating, and relaxed stroke, which does affect the motion into the CB and the resulting shot.
dquarasr
Registered
Exactly why I view “swooping” side-action strokes intending to add side spin as bunk. There is no way a human being can be precise enough to add the minuscule side MPH on cue delivery compared with a straight stroke to be impactful. It’s probably hitting farther out from center that adds spin, not the fact that the tip is moving sideways in relation to its forward motion that is realizing more side spin.
I cannot and do not believe anyone at any level can consistently control sidespin with a swoop stroke.
Actually that "is" how it works with most standard deflection shafts.......You set up as if to hit no spin....There are two ways to apply BHE....one is you can pivot your back hand left or right (holding the bridge hand solid) to the desired amount of tip offset.....the other is to apply the BHE on the final stroke were you kind of swoop left or right creating tip offset at impact......(the tip is not "sliding" across the face of the CB to create the english...the swoop creates a tip offset....
I routinely used BHE mostly with a pre-pivot....but if I was hitting a draw shot two rails out or follow two rails out and I just wanted to make sure the CB did not check up on the rail....I would swoop...(or I like to call it err) to the right or left to make sure I did not put un-wanted english the other way.
Never heard of anyone "twising" the tip accross the face of the cb before.....(actually I have never heard of dropping the tip at impact either)....I am a grip stance posture alignment person....I let the moving parts work themselves out naturally....if it is wrong....I change one of the non moving parts to correct the stroke...
Maybe already mentioned in this thread but...
What I've experienced is when in dead stroke there's the "sensation/feel" of a longer dwell time on the CB.
My opinion is that feeling comes from near or perfect timing.
It's a wonderful feeling. It can happen without flow/"In the Zone" which is the Ultimate State
What I've experienced is when in dead stroke there's the "sensation/feel" of a longer dwell time on the CB.
My opinion is that feeling comes from near or perfect timing.
It's a wonderful feeling. It can happen without flow/"In the Zone" which is the Ultimate State
Bill Hawkins played 3C like that. For quite a while he held (or tied) the American record for high run at 3C with 19. It's amazing what a person can do with talent and practice. Here's more info:
dquarasr
Registered
Ok, thanks for the info. I am sure he was impressive. But may I ask: was he successful because of, or in spite of, using a swoop stroke?
Shots with lots of spin do feel different. Some people may ascribe that difference in feel to something they imagine is happening. It doesn't really matter to their play the cause of difference in feel. If they work during practice to achieve that feel on shots, and thereby ensure good spin, then they will improve, even if it is for the wrong "reason".
As for Joe Davis, he got things right that many at the time got wrong, but he did not have the benefit of high speed video.
It's kinda both. The tip's sideways movement is how it hits farther from center - the direction it's moving at contact defines the CB's "center" (as viewed from the swooped direction) and therefore how far from center it's hitting (slightly farther). But beware - it also means that the pre-swoop miscue limit is no longer safe.
But most importantly, the same amount of spin can be produced with a straight stroke, so there's no practical reason to complicate things with a swoop.
pj
chgo
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That's asked about a lot of good/great/goat players who have "unusual" ways to do things. It's impossible to say.
Willie Hoppe played with an unorthodox stroke because he learned to play when he was seven and was not tall enough to use a vertical forearm. He clearly has a sidearm stroke and a lot of swoop in the available video clips when he's an adult. Welker Cochran started the same way but at the age of 13 or so got a coach who forced his forearm to be vertical and his stroke to be straight. Cochran turned out to be arguably better than Hoppe.