STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects

[gregcantrall]

Can you maybe let it go now? At least in this thread? It’s annoying when one guy is making 90% of the comments, all off-topic, in one thread. Not to mention disrespectful to the OP, who is likely getting notified and reading every new comment.

I understand. I apologize for my "out of line posts." Nothing glib or sarcastic or even off topic will be forthcoming from this account.

I just hope that the good doctor promotes and teaches well.

1. a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
   "criticism is the backbone of the scientific method"

 

[gerryf]

I can understand how people with leg, back, or neck issues might find it easier to look at the CB last.

And I also know from personal experimentation it's possible to pull the trigger with your eyes closed. But that does not mean it is a "best practice" if you want optimal results.

Lou Figueroa

Yeah, i agree it's not a best practice, but whether to look at CB or OB last seems less important than the other parts of the shot. By the time you're pulling the trigger, all that aiming stuff should be over with. Now it comes down to your stroke. Your not steering your hand to the aiming point like you'd steer a car around a curve. The path your back hand is following is determined by your fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and head, and maybe your knees and legs if you're a 'mover'.

Judd Trump is a good example. A purist would say he aims wrong, and strokes wrong (not down his aiming line), but here the two errors cancel each other out. The two errors are consistent and he's a great shooter. Here's a link to good example where the camera is looking back down the cue, both on this red (at 6.50), and on the final black. Trump 147 in 2022 And these are soft shots, It's even more obvious on harder shorts.

Trump says he didn't know he was doing this until someone told him, and the consensus is that it's not worth trying to fix.

So in his case, his stroke is correcting for his aim. He's a very good shooter because he's very consistent.

If I properly prepare for a long straight shot, the aiming should be trivial, and so if I miss, I assume that my stroke was wrong, and usually it is.

I've tried both CB last and OB last, and I didn't think there was much difference between them in terms of making the shot, but with OB last, my pace was usually better, and my resulting position was better.

The only time CB last seemed to be better for me, was when the CB was against the cushion and I had a very tiny target to hit.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yeah, i agree it's not a best practice, but whether to look at CB or OB last seems less important than the other parts of the shot. By the time you're pulling the trigger, all that aiming stuff should be over with. Now it comes down to your stroke. Your not steering your hand to the aiming point like you'd steer a car around a curve. The path your back hand is following is determined by your fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and head, and maybe your knees and legs if you're a 'mover'.

Judd Trump is a good example. A purist would say he aims wrong, and strokes wrong (not down his aiming line), but here the two errors cancel each other out. The two errors are consistent and he's a great shooter. Here's a link to good example where the camera is looking back down the cue, both on this red (at 6.50), and on the final black. Trump 147 in 2022 And these are soft shots, It's even more obvious on harder shorts.

Trump says he didn't know he was doing this until someone told him, and the consensus is that it's not worth trying to fix.

So in his case, his stroke is correcting for his aim. He's a very good shooter because he's very consistent.

If I properly prepare for a long straight shot, the aiming should be trivial, and so if I miss, I assume that my stroke was wrong, and usually it is.

I've tried both CB last and OB last, and I didn't think there was much difference between them in terms of making the shot, but with OB last, my pace was usually better, and my resulting position was better.

The only time CB last seemed to be better for me, was when the CB was against the cushion and I had a very tiny target to hit.

OK, fair enough.

How would you describe your level of play?

Lou Figueroa

 

[garczar]

I put more weight into watching Ronnie in competition. I have done that recently. He looks at the object ball last. I can't say that's true for all shots or all types of shots but on the shots that required careful aim -- and the camera showed his eye pattern -- he was looking at the object ball last.

every time. i've slowed video down of a few top snooker guys. all are focused on OB when they send it.

 

[bbb]

OK, fair enough.

How would you describe your level of play?

Lou Figueroa

why is his level of play important?

 

[garczar]

why is his level of play important?

stirring the proverbial pot. it doesn't matter.

 

[lfigueroa]

stirring the proverbial pot. it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, especially if you’re advocating certain unorthadox techniques.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BRKNRUN]

Meh.....For 99% of the shots It is like shooting a gun.....You look at what you are trying to shoot.....From my perspective....The cue is the gun...The CB is the bullet.....The OB is my target........sure...in pool the bullet is fired from outside the gun....but it is still the bullet....as long as your gun barrel (stroke) is not crooked...the bullet goes where aimed.

For a jacked up jump shot or unorthodox stance /angle........The cue becomes the bullet and the CB (specific point/axis is the target)

 

[jtaylor996]

It is like shooting a gun.....You look at what you are trying to shoot.....

When you shoot irons (mainly talking pistol here), you're supposed to be focused on the front sight post... and in that community they argue back and forth on that vs target, just like we do here. So the analogy isn't a good one to prove any kind of point.

 

[ShootingArts]

When you shoot irons (mainly talking pistol here), you're supposed to be focused on the front sight post... and in that community they argue back and forth on that vs target, just like we do here. So the analogy isn't a good one to prove any kind of point.

I was going to leave their bad shooting analogies alone, we knew what they were trying to say.

Meantime, this front sight shooter consistently shot tighter groups than a handful of shooters that told me they focused on the target.

Mostly shot IPSC style steels myself when I shot steel at all but I loved the eight inch plates shot at twenty-five feet indoors. The last gun I built for myself was a 38Super single stack steel gun. Steel is real!

Hu

 

[BRKNRUN]

When you shoot irons (mainly talking pistol here), you're supposed to be focused on the front sight post... and in that community they argue back and forth on that vs target, just like we do here. So the analogy isn't a good one to prove any kind of point.

You missed an important part of my analogy.....The CB is not the front sight post....The CB is the bullet....The front sight post is the ferrule or tip.

Your eyes move back and forth between tip/shaft alignment and target....just like a gun when your focus shifts from one to the other one gets blurred in your vision......my focus before pulling the trigger is the target...(the sight post gets blurred)

Beside all that.....If I were to be a person that focused on the sight post last...(as it relates to pool) I am still not aiming it at the CB (bullet)....I am aiming it (the tip) at the target OB.

In shooting pool there is an extra step in that you have to first align your barrel through the bullet...where in a gun the bullet is already centered inside the barrel...............(thus the comment of your gun barrel (stroke) must be straight)

In real terms as it relates to pool.....I actually want the front of my back hand to hit the target (OB)....send your back hand at the OB target with a solid bridge and most likely that is where your tip will go.

 

[FranCrimi]

Meh.....For 99% of the shots It is like shooting a gun.....You look at what you are trying to shoot.....From my perspective....The cue is the gun...The CB is the bullet.....The OB is my target........sure...in pool the bullet is fired from outside the gun....but it is still the bullet....as long as your gun barrel (stroke) is not crooked...the bullet goes where aimed.

For a jacked up jump shot or unorthodox stance /angle........The cue becomes the bullet and the CB (specific point/axis is the target)

Interesting analogy, but really, it's not at all like shooting a gun. The main reason for looking at the ob last is because it's a necessary step in determining the speed of the shot. You need to see the distance the cb has to travel as you move your cue. That's why pool is a hand-eye coordination game. What you are seeing is supposed to assist you in determining the speed of your movement.

In some cases, like shooting over a ball, or jump shots, where you may choose to look at the cb last, you have to rely on your memory of the distance to determine the speed. But to intentionally choose to look at the cb last is putting a player at an unnecessary disadvantage, because he adds the additional variable of having to rely on memory to determine the speed. Why rely on memory when it's right in front of you?

 

[Oikawa]

Interesting analogy, but really, it's not at all like shooting a gun. The main reason for looking at the ob last is because it's a necessary step in determining the speed of the shot. You need to see the distance the cb has to travel as you move your cue. That's why pool is a hand-eye coordination game. What you are seeing is supposed to assist you in determining the speed of your movement.

In some cases, like shooting over a ball, or jump shots, where you may choose to look at the cb last, you have to rely on your memory of the distance to determine the speed. But to intentionally choose to look at the cb last is putting a player at an unnecessary disadvantage, because he adds the additional variable of having to rely on memory to determine the speed. Why rely on memory when it's right in front of you?

Well said.

To add to this, I don't know how others experience it (vision and how low you are on the shot might vary from person to person a lot), but when I look at the OB during the final stroke, I have a clear image of both the CB and the stick in my peripheral vision. I can utilize that image to ensure the stroke goes straight and hits the CB where I intend, while still having a clear image of the OB, which wouldn't be the case if I looked at the CB.

When you are elevated by a lot, you don't have such a clear peripheral image of the CB/cue, because the elevation causes the distance between what you are looking at (OB) and the peripheral point of interest (CB/cue) to be further away within your field of vision. In these shots it can be useful to look at the CB last, as Fran and others have said.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have a clear image of both the CB and the stick in my peripheral vision. I can utilize that image to ensure the stroke goes straight and hits the CB where I intend, while still having a clear image of the OB, which wouldn't be the case if I looked at the CB.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

A few years or closer to a dozen ago I noticed something interesting playing around with pucks at home. When I am out of stroke I hit the cue ball or puck an eighth inch high and about half that left of where I intend. If I wait a couple months without shooting and try the test again I get the same result. I expected to have issues hitting precisely where I meant to but I expected the hit to be all over the place, maybe that eighth inch but in any direction. Interesting.

I tried a banger, not even a good banger, at the house. Then I went to the world's pool hall and tried about a dozen people I could snag as they went by the table I was practicing on. I set up the same shot over and over, an about three-quarter table cut shot on a nine foot blue label Diamond. The "subjects" of my testing ranged from two bangers, then C to A level with a shortstop or two tossed in. Most were probably somewhere in the "B" scale.

The banger and one other person hit the exact spot intended on the cue ball over and over. Both look at the cue ball last! The other people all missed the spot on the cue ball over and over.

A small sample size but a strong indication that along with the advantages of object ball last there is a trade off. As expected and as indicated by many in this thread, for maximum accuracy hitting the cue ball on touchy shots looking at the cue ball last is an advantage.

We have had people go to gun analogies in this thread. Shooting short range benchrest out to three hundred yards the slightest issue on the bags, bench, or close to you has far more effect than an error or misjudgment on the far end near the target. A slight wind change near the bench could ruin a group and an entire match with one shot. The same wind change sneaking in fifteen or twenty yards from the target has little effect. Barring outside forces changing things the bullet is much like pool balls in one respect, you start them in one direction or something else starts them in one direction along the path of their flight, they are going to continue on that path.

I haven't given it much thought in ages but I think the more difficult the shot, the more I will be inclined to use cue ball last. Not to say I always will do things that way, my main focus these days is having fun and I haven't bet in ages.

I will still shoot however is most comfortable. However, this thread and the sidetrack jarring my memory make me more inclined to use cue ball last more I believe. When I played around with cue ball last intensively for 150-200 hours of play I don't think anyone could have told what I was looking at when I shot based on my level of play.

Cue ball, object ball, whatever catches my attention along the shot line, I will continue to use whatever cranks my tractor at the moment. Guess I am just like Ronnie, in one very small aspect!

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

Since there was much discussion about eye pattern "best practices" in this thread, I thought I would share this here. Neil Robertson (one of the greatest long potters ever) “lecturing” Stephen Hendry (a CB-last proponent) about the better practice of focusing on the OB during the final stroke:

 

[gregcantrall]

Since there was much discussion about eye pattern "best practices" in this thread, I thought I would share this here. Neil Robertson (one of the greatest long potters ever) lecturing Stephen Hendry (a CB-last proponent) about the better practice of focusing on the OB during the final stroke:

I would characterize it as sharing rather than lecture.
From my experience and observations of snooker the fine control of the white is obtained looking at the white at impact. The long pots seem to favor looking up to the secondary target which is the contact point with the object ball. Judd Trump and Neal Robertson own the long pot category. The cueball at impact practicioners hold the high run or big breaks category.
Ronnie O'Sullivan speaks of either way which would compare to shooting with either hand. He does that pretty well too. Pretty hard to find a category that Ronnie isn't strong in though.
Instruction in either method is fine. Disparaging the other method is miss guided.

 

[gregcantrall]

Here's Stephen Hendry and Mark Allen. While they don't discuss the eye pattern, Mark's heavy brows make it easier for me to guess at his pattern. John Higgins and Mark Williams are bragged on for cueball control. Both have given me good looks at their eye patterns.
Mark Allen's drill for cueball control is a heck of a test.

 

[dr_dave]

Ronnie O'Sullivan speaks of either way which would compare to shooting with either hand. He does that pretty well too. Pretty hard to find a category that Ronnie isn't strong in though.

Agreed. Ronnie is a rare individual, seemingly being able to master any technique ("best practices" or not): right hand vs. left hand, elbow drop vs. not, CB-last focus vs. OB-last focus, slow play vs. fast play, etc!

 

[gregcantrall]

Agreed. Ronnie is a rare individual, seemingly being able to master any technique ("best practices" or not): right hand vs. left hand, elbow drop vs. not, CB-last focus vs. OB-last focus, slow play vs. fast play, etc!

Ronnie's pace of play is variable according to the difficulties he is facing. Solving problems takes a little more time. In his latest performance his though process was telegraphed in his facial expression. Slow and Deliberate until it became routine. Even multiple reassess on the tough decisions. However once the decisions were made ......Then the 14 second or less shot times when the train was back on the rails.
Ronnie is taking the game above and beyond.