Stroke! Wonder How to get their fantastic Strokes?

ShootingArts said:
dr_dave said:
If you are saying what I think you are saying, this is a common misconception that is debunked here:

getting more spin with a swoop/swipe stroke?
Click to expand...
I long ago quit looking at anything at your site, a matter of personal ethics.
Click to expand...
If you don't look at the resources on the swoop/swipe stroke page, you will not see why some of your ideas are considered flawed by some people. But I can't force you to look at my stuff.

ShootingArts said:
I have owned quite a bit of intellectual property over the years, had some stolen including a few paragraphs of mine you stole. What you stole wasn't exactly top secret so I didn't care.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you mean by "stole." If I quoted and cited something you wrote on this public forum, that certainly is not "stealing."

FYI, I just searched for your name on my site, and the only quote from you I could find is here:

pool cue ferrule

If you prefer not being quoted on my site, please let me know and I will be happy to paraphrase the points in my own words instead and remove mention of you on my site.


ShootingArts said:
As for the theory angle doesn't matter, use a striped ball with the stripe vertical to give a nice target. place your bridge hand inline with the edge of the stripe and hit the ball. Now move your bridge hand six inches over to the opposite side from where you were hitting the cue ball. Can you still hit it in the same place without a miscue? Surely you can if angle doesn't matter.
...
Even pj grasps that different angles create different squirt. If angle didn't matter squirt would be identical.
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When PJ, others, and I refer to "tip contact point" or "tip offset," it is relative to the cue direction and center of the CB. I think this explains much of the misunderstanding. For more info, see the illustration on the following page showing how the "tip offset from center" is different based on the angle of the cue, for the same contact point on the CB:

cue elevation and angle effects on effective "tip contact point" and "tip offset from center"

Regards,
Dave
 
ShootingArts said:
Dave,

I long ago quit looking at anything at your site, a matter of personal ethics. I have owned quite a bit of intellectual property over the years, had some stolen including a few paragraphs of mine you stole. What you stole wasn't exactly top secret so I didn't care. However, I object to your assumption that you can just take what you want. I don't know if the law has changed now, perhaps you can. Legally, you couldn't when you did it for years. Ethically you still can't, in my opinion. I suspect you would be unhappy if someone built a mirror site to yours taking your years of investment of time and money in your site and placing it under their own name.

As for the theory angle doesn't matter, use a striped ball with the stripe vertical to give a nice target. place your bridge hand inline with the edge of the stripe and hit the ball. Now move your bridge hand six inches over to the opposite side from where you were hitting the cue ball. Can you still hit it in the same place without a miscue? Surely you can if angle doesn't matter. The same would be true if you moved your bridge hand twelve inches to the side with a half-moon shaped cue tip.

If moving the bridge hand to illustrate the point doesn't suit a person the same proof can be demonstrated with a very short bridge and the various ways of applying side.

Even pj grasps that different angles create different squirt. If angle didn't matter squirt would be identical.

Ah well, I am tired of trying to use reason to make people understand what two minutes on a pool table would demonstrate. Ultimately all of the debate on AZB means nothing compared to what happens on a table. When I worked in Research and Development I started as a CAD Designer and ended up running the test shop as well. Never in my time there was the test shop proven wrong by calculations however calculations were repeatedly proven wrong in the test shop. Nothing wrong with the calculations as far as they went, they just didn't go far enough. That is generally the same problem with those applying physics to pool. Physics certainly apply, but only when applied properly!

Hu
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Hu, I don't know you, but, YOU have a VERY good handle on the issue of, 'science & physics' in the cue games!

This is why, if possible, someone trying to explain they're written, 'theory' on cue games, should be accompanied by a visual explanation! I understand this was NOT that simple in the era that I learned billiards! As soon as I was able to purchase portable video equipment, (1983), I did. You know, "A video is worth a 1000 words" thing!But, nowadays every human has a smart phone/camera/video to improve or prove they're theories!

The cue games just like most sports, the execution of certain aspects of the game are NOT set in stone, (science/physics)! The HUMAN element plays a far more priority, but, the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of all sports lie at the heart of perfection of that sport, SO important in the cue games because of the precision involved!
 
dr_dave said:
When PJ, others, and I refer to "tip contact point" or "tip offset," it is relative to the cue direction and center of the CB.
Click to expand...
Actually, when I say it I mean relative to the direction of the cue's force into the CB, which I believe to be parallel with the CB's direction. I believe the miscue limit is measured the same way. Am I mistaken about what you're saying, or about what I believe?

pj
chgo
 
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dr_dave said:
If you don't look at the resources on the swoop/swipe stroke page, you will not see why some of your ideas are considered flawed by some people. But I can't force you to look at my stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by "stole." If I quoted and cited something you wrote on this public forum, that certainly is not "stealing."

FYI, I just searched for your name on my site, and the only quote from you I could find is here:

pool cue ferrule

If you prefer not being quoted on my site, please let me know and I will be happy to paraphrase the points in my own words instead and remove mention of you on my site.


When PJ, others, and I refer to "tip contact point" or "tip offset," it is relative to the cue direction and center of the CB. I think this explains much of the misunderstanding. For more info, see the illustration on the following page showing how the "tip offset from center" is different based on the angle of the cue, for the same contact point on the CB:

cue elevation and angle effects on effective "tip contact point" and "tip offset from center"

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

What I colored red sounds like exactly the same thing I have been saying for days in this thread. Of course, if cue angle changes the effective contact point, that is also what I have been saying. Amazing that people can disagree with my posts while agreeing with what I say!

As for the right to use others work, requesting permission and begging forgiveness after the fact are two different things.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Dave,

I long ago quit looking at anything at your site, a matter of personal ethics.
Click to expand...
That might explain some of your misconceptions.

I applaud Dave for compiling the info on his site, from whatever sources, for the benefit of all. I believe he usually announces to the writer/poster when he copies something of theirs onto his webpage - and he does it so others can easily find it. If anybody objects I'm sure he'll immediately remove the info in question - and I'm sure it will be everybody's loss, including yours.

Thanks Dave!

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Actually, when I say it I mean relative to the direction of the cue's force into the CB, which I believe to be parallel with the CB's direction. I believe the miscue limit is measured the same way. Am I mistaken about what you're saying, or about what I believe?
Click to expand...
Your statement is more accurate. Thank you for clarifying.

Regards,
Dave
 
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Thank you sir!

mr3cushion said:
Hu, I don't know you, but, YOU have a VERY good handle on the issue of, 'science & physics' in the cue games!

This is why, if possible, someone trying to explain they're written, 'theory' on cue games, should be accompanied by a visual explanation! I understand this was NOT that simple in the era that I learned billiards! As soon as I was able to purchase portable video equipment, (1983), I did. You know, "A video is worth a 1000 words" thing!But, nowadays every human has a smart phone/camera/video to improve or prove they're theories!

The cue games just like most sports, the execution of certain aspects of the game are NOT set in stone, (science/physics)! The HUMAN element plays a far more priority, but, the BASIC FUNDAMENTALS of all sports lie at the heart of perfection of that sport, SO important in the cue games because of the precision involved!
Click to expand...



Thank you for the kind words sir! Encountering gentlemen like yourself makes beating my head against a brick wall in these threads occasionally worthwhile. I have always been impressed with the dedication of three cushion players. I see you have had and continue to have a most amazing run on the tables. Nice web site too by the way.

I would like to video for my own improvement, too lazy to do it just to prove what I already know. No quiet table to work on and there is the issue of equipment. I looked into it awhile back and moderation never being a strong point I would have dropped a thousand or two on equipment just to begin with. I have always wanted to video going back to watching my grandmother who loved to video things. Her first video camera I remember was a plain 8mm but I think she had a still older one. Many old reels of film dissolving to dust in her old home.

Hu
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Actually, when I say it I mean relative to the direction of the cue's force into the CB, which I believe to be parallel with the OB's direction. I believe the miscue limit is measured the same way. Am I mistaken about what you're saying, or about what I believe?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...



If it wouldn't take another ten-thousand words of wasted effort I would think there was a chance of you gaining some understanding. The cue stick's force into the cue ball is the key to understanding.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
The cue stick's force into the cue ball is the key to understanding.
Click to expand...
So why don't you understand that tip offset and miscue limit are measured relative to it?

P.S. There was a typo in my post - it should read "which I believe to be parallel with the CB's direction".

pj
chgo
 
ShootingArts said:
Thank you for the kind words sir! Encountering gentlemen like yourself makes beating my head against a brick wall in these threads occasionally worthwhile. I have always been impressed with the dedication of three cushion players. I see you have had and continue to have a most amazing run on the tables. Nice web site too by the way.

I would like to video for my own improvement, too lazy to do it just to prove what I already know. No quiet table to work on and there is the issue of equipment. I looked into it awhile back and moderation never being a strong point I would have dropped a thousand or two on equipment just to begin with. I have always wanted to video going back to watching my grandmother who loved to video things. Her first video camera I remember was a plain 8mm but I think she had a still older one. Many old reels of film dissolving to dust in her old home.

Hu
Click to expand...

In 1982, when the first home VHS video recorder/player (Panasonic) came out i purchased it, $1,500.00! Next year they came out with a portable version, Camera, recorder/player plus tripod, cost me over 3K.

I was starting to experiment with, 'different strokes' and 'follow-thrus' for certain exaggerated effects on the CB!

Here's an edited version (for time) of the first video I recorded with that equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQvxNUWPjBg

It was at the 20th Century Bowling/Billiards in Chicago. they had about 12 Brunswick Anniversary pool tables and three 3 cushion tables same model.

The cloth on the tables was about 3-4 months old, NO heat, NO silicone! Simonis cloth.
 
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Nice!

mr3cushion said:
In 1982, when the first home VHS video recorder/player (Panasonic) came out i purchased it, $1,500.00! Next year they came out with a portable version, Camera, recorder/player plus tripod, cost me over 3K.

I was starting to experiment with, 'different strokes' and 'follow-thrus' for certain exaggerated effects on the CB!

Here's an edited version (for time) of the first video I recorded with that equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQvxNUWPjBg

It was at the 20th Century Bowling/Billiards in Chicago. they had about 12 Brunswick Anniversary pool tables and three 3 cushion tables same model.

The cloth on the tables was about 3-4 months old, NO heat, NO silicone! Simonis cloth.
Click to expand...


Nice shooting and nice video! It has held up well considering age and transfers between formats and forms. That is another irritation concerning today's video and still pictures, all captures are processed and compressed to some degree without us having any control of these things. I was a fairly serious outdoor photographer for awhile and shot in RAW. That didn't mean the image wasn't processed and compressed, it just meant it was less than some other options.

As soon as I glanced at your website I was quite sure that you know far more than anyone else in this thread about applied physics with balls and a cue stick. I spent over two years when I practically lived on a pool table when not on the job just learning spot shape for the cue ball long ago. Lost that with a twenty year break from pool.

Hu
 
yep!

Patrick Johnson said:
So why don't you understand that tip offset and miscue limit are measured relative to it?

P.S. There was a typo in my post - it should read "which I believe to be parallel with the CB's direction".

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


I saw that the post dave complimented didn't actually make sense.

This that you are stating makes little sense either unless you are once again changing around to agree with me. The amount, direction, and location on the cue ball force is applied all come into play. Simple concepts that seem beyond you.

I have carefully avoided a major factor that renders most of your absolutes false, speed. I figured you were wrestling with enough already!

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Nice shooting and nice video! It has held up well considering age and transfers between formats and forms. That is another irritation concerning today's video and still pictures, all captures are processed and compressed to some degree without us having any control of these things. I was a fairly serious outdoor photographer for awhile and shot in RAW. That didn't mean the image wasn't processed and compressed, it just meant it was less than some other options.

As soon as I glanced at your website I was quite sure that you know far more than anyone else in this thread about applied physics with balls and a cue stick. I spent over two years when I practically lived on a pool table when not on the job just learning spot shape for the cue ball long ago. Lost that with a twenty year break from pool.

Hu
Click to expand...

Hu; once again, thanks for the props!

I have some footage of being interviewed by Johnny Morris of the Bears and from WBBM Chicago TV as a Sports newscaster, while demonstrating some, 'Artistic Billiard' shots. I'll see if I can dig it up and transfer it, for You tube.
 
Anyway...

I think there are two important aspects of developing your stroke:

1. Decide what you want to accomplish - hitting the CB consistently where you want at any speed pretty much covers it. Knowing that's all there is to it doesn't make it easy, but it does point you in the right direction to get there without too many detours.

2. Work on that using some of the good suggestions in this thread, and don't worry about "stroke secrets of the pros" - they don't really exist. It's as simple (and as difficult) as hitting the CB consistently where you want at any speed.

pj
chgo
 
This is an excerpt from the, 'Fundamental' chapter of my book/DVD, "The Concise Book of Position Play" on the stroke and follow-thru, which is essential in achieving a much better overall stroke than the norm.

The Stroke and Follow Through

The past and present strokes in 3 Cushion Billiards
One of the most common faults of amateur players is the incorrect concept of the proper stroke and follow-through in 3 cushion billiards. Unfortunately years ago in the pre-modern game era, 30’s 40’ and 50’s, the equipment in the United States was vastly different. Modern tables are heated. Synthetic rubber is used for the cushions. Phenolic balls are used instead of Ivory and the woolen table cloth slowed the cue ball down more than today's cloth. The statement, “You must follow-through on all shots”, was misleading. The professionals of that era should have said, “Apply the proper follow-through for each individual shot”.

The modern game of 3 cushion billiards has evolved into a precision game. In order to achieve that consistent precision, you must have a stroke that is free from flaws. A certain amount of natural hand-eye coordination will give some player’s more consistent results. But the proper stroke and follow through can be taught to the level of any player’s natural ability.

The start of the proper stroke
The proper stroke starts in the pre-setup routine. After analyzing the position that waits for you, determine what kind of stroke is needed to achieve a point. Before the player addresses the cue ball, he needs to decide on the rhythm and tempo for that particular shot. Use a couple of warm up strokes to get the feeling.

When addressing the cue ball, the cue tip should be fairly close to the cue ball before you start your backswing. The player should learn to develop the same number of warm-up strokes on every shot. This provides the rhythm component of the stroke.

I personally believe in the continuous straight, horizontal and vertical stroke method, and not pausing. If the player interrupts the rhythm, he may lose the timing and tempo he was trying to achieve. Another very important part of the stroke is crescendo, (increasing speed), never decelerating. Just remember, whatever number of warm-up strokes you choose to take, embed that into your game.


P.S. I want to add this element, because it's an integral element of mastering a better stroke.

From the, Grip section of that chapter. I won't post the entire section, just the last paragraph and a few photos that show the grip-hand at the beginning of the, back swing, then, the back swing.

The simple move
The last element of a proper grip is the simplest. Most average players are looking for some magical move to make just before they strike the cue ball, well; I'm here to tell you, there isn't one. It's the simple opening of the hand on the cue when swinging the cue back, Photo13, and when the cue swings forward closing the hand around the cue with all fingers, Photo14. Also the middle knuckles on the cue hand, should be pointing to the floor. This along with the arm and the elbow in the correct position when addressing the cue ball will give the player a more consistent effect on the cue ball.


Photo 13.
TCBPPFundamentalsphotos27.jpg

Photo 14
TCBPPFundamentalsphotos28.jpg
 
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mr3cushion said:
This is an excerpt from the, 'Fundamental' chapter of my book/DVD, "The Concise Book of Position Play" on the stroke on follow-thru, which is essential in achieving a much better overall stroke than the norm.
Click to expand...
Very well put, Mr3. When did you write it?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Anyway...

I think there are two important aspects of developing your stroke:

1. Decide what you want to accomplish - hitting the CB consistently where you want at any speed pretty much covers it. Knowing that's all there is to it doesn't make it easy, but it does point you in the right direction to get there without too many detours.

2. Work on that using some of the good suggestions in this thread, and don't worry about "stroke secrets of the pros" - they don't really exist. It's as simple (and as difficult) as hitting the CB consistently where you want at any speed.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

See!!!!!!::::

PJ, you answered the man's question....to the point.

GOOD POST!
 
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