dave sutton
Banned
cueaddicts said:Man, that Sugartree got lapped up like a kitten on milk !!
Guess those cues must suck, huh ??
lol his finish looks great. very deep. he really sprays the crap out of the cues huh
Sugartree for sale: Olivewood/Black Palm
- Thread starter vicdotcom
- Start date
lol his finish looks great. very deep. he really sprays the crap out of the cues huh
I have been wanting to try a Sugartree for a while. Several friends who like the same cues as me (Tuckers, Zylrs, SW's), also like Sugartrees, so I wanted to see what the fuss was about. This was the first one I've seen in a while that was affordable, and the olivewood forearm intrigued me.
I received the cue yesterday and played with it last night for a few sets of 9-ball. The wood is really nice, as expected - the Palmwood and the Olivewood are really nice pieces - the olivewood has some epoxy-filled surface cracks ('checks' in Vic's woodworking lingo) that Erik Crisp assured do not affect structural soundness, and do not detract from the appearance as they would in a piece of maple. The Palmwood is really wicked-looking. Lots of compliments on the wood last night.
The cue plays superb - very stiff and accurate, and moves the cueball great. It also breaks great. Play is subjective, but for what I like in a cue, Sugartrees are right up there.
I received the cue yesterday and played with it last night for a few sets of 9-ball. The wood is really nice, as expected - the Palmwood and the Olivewood are really nice pieces - the olivewood has some epoxy-filled surface cracks ('checks' in Vic's woodworking lingo) that Erik Crisp assured do not affect structural soundness, and do not detract from the appearance as they would in a piece of maple. The Palmwood is really wicked-looking. Lots of compliments on the wood last night.
The cue plays superb - very stiff and accurate, and moves the cueball great. It also breaks great. Play is subjective, but for what I like in a cue, Sugartrees are right up there.
was the olivewood cored with another wood?
Not many cuemakers like to work with them, and i think its a shame, because right next to bacote, olivewood is imo THE nicest wood there is.
The grain of some pieces are just out of this world.
nice cue, greath price, if i was in the market for one, this would be my choice
Not many cuemakers like to work with them, and i think its a shame, because right next to bacote, olivewood is imo THE nicest wood there is.
The grain of some pieces are just out of this world.
nice cue, greath price, if i was in the market for one, this would be my choice
There are two kinds of olivewood ( mainly ).Solartje said:was the olivewood cored with another wood?
Not many cuemakers like to work with them, and i think its a shame, because right next to bacote, olivewood is imo THE nicest wood there is.
The grain of some pieces are just out of this world.
nice cue, greath price, if i was in the market for one, this would be my choice
Bethlehem kind ( or middeteranian ) and African olivewood.
The Bethlehem kind are not from logs but from branches.
The African kind is much better imo.
But, it's very unstable too and takes a long time and a special piece to be used as forearm.
Solartje said:was the olivewood cored with another wood?
Not many cuemakers like to work with them, and i think its a shame, because right next to bacote, olivewood is imo THE nicest wood there is.
The grain of some pieces are just out of this world.
nice cue, greath price, if i was in the market for one, this would be my choice
No, not cored. Vic provided me with most of the information that he had gotten from Erik Crisp.
It's an interesting hit - has a very nice feel AND sound.
runscott said:
Man its great to hear that you like the cue. Thats part of the reason I priced it more affordably to make sure that someone did get the chance to try out a Sugartree and didnt get priced out. I originally wanted a little more but some friends talked me into lowering the price and im glad I listened.
Again sorry about the confusion on the checks in the forearm. But I always loved the honey color of the wood and the black palm looks great when you look really finely at it.
And I'm glad your breaking with it also! I always broke with the cue and never looked back. I tried a friends designated break cue once and it didn't perform as well on the break. I also agree with you 100% about the hit and sound but I didn't put that in the selling post for fear of sounding hokey.
Well again thanks for the quick payment and glad you enjoy how the cue plays
Vic
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I've attempted to build one cue out of Olive wood. I cored it with a .750 core and added a handle. I had made one or two passes on it and set it aside for a few months. Erick was passing through Cincinnati after leaving Alaska and on his way to New Mexico and stopped in my shop. He was looking at some of the cues I had started and picked up the Olive wood one and he noticed that the prong had cracked. I threw a little Hobo fit and tossed the cue aside and have never used Olive wood again. I looked at that cue a few months ago and it appears the crack has almost closed up but once burned is enough for me. To many more friendly woods out there to have to worry about that happening down the line on another cue. It is a unique wood though just in it's sublime figure that doesn't shout at you.
Dick
Dick
African or Bethlehem olive , Dick?rhncue said:
So, now that I have tried to re-sell this cue and had no takers, let me ask a straight-forward question: The seller claims to have had a lot of interest in it previously, and the responses on this thread also indicate a lot of interest....up until the point where I described CRACKS in the forearm. Would any of you still have had interest if the CRACKS described by Vic as "CHECKS", had actually been described as CRACKS?
Just wondering - when I complained about the cracks, Vic sent me a bunch of emails from Erik Crisp, where Erik talked about the cracks, and used the term CRACK, not check. I'm sure Vic also referred to the cracks as cracks when corresponding with Erik, but he deleted all of his own descriptions of the issue when forwarding the mail to me. Yes, technically woodworkers use the term 'checks' to describe cracks that are not a stability issue. I refinish cues, but I'm no woodworker and I don't speak their lingo. Erik Crisp IS a woodworker, and even he knows what a CRACK is.
As I said, the cue plays great and the CRACKS are not an issue, but they are still cracks.
I've gotten really disgusted with AZ'ers hiding little (and big) things in their descriptions. I've bought cues with shafts that didn't even go with the cues, 13mm shafts that ended up being 12mm, major finish problems, cues described as 'new' and 'unplayed' that had been played for years and cleaned up. The list goes on and on. It's really quite incredible that you guys put up with this - I know I don't.
Just wondering - when I complained about the cracks, Vic sent me a bunch of emails from Erik Crisp, where Erik talked about the cracks, and used the term CRACK, not check. I'm sure Vic also referred to the cracks as cracks when corresponding with Erik, but he deleted all of his own descriptions of the issue when forwarding the mail to me. Yes, technically woodworkers use the term 'checks' to describe cracks that are not a stability issue. I refinish cues, but I'm no woodworker and I don't speak their lingo. Erik Crisp IS a woodworker, and even he knows what a CRACK is.
As I said, the cue plays great and the CRACKS are not an issue, but they are still cracks.
I've gotten really disgusted with AZ'ers hiding little (and big) things in their descriptions. I've bought cues with shafts that didn't even go with the cues, 13mm shafts that ended up being 12mm, major finish problems, cues described as 'new' and 'unplayed' that had been played for years and cleaned up. The list goes on and on. It's really quite incredible that you guys put up with this - I know I don't.
In any case, pending a couple of possible trades, the cue will go to ebay, FULLY DESCRIBED, and whatever happens happens. I'm through buying from AZ'ers unless I know them - perhaps the moderators will eventually clean this place up so that we can deal in an honest environment.
Scott <=== tired of opening packages from AZ'ers to discover issues not accurately described in 'for sell' thread
Scott <=== tired of opening packages from AZ'ers to discover issues not accurately described in 'for sell' thread
Was the last picture added after the sale?
It shows 2 very distinguishable cracks. One starts at the joint ring. The other starts near where thi first one ends. You should be allowed to return the cue if you never hit with it.
Nick
It shows 2 very distinguishable cracks. One starts at the joint ring. The other starts near where thi first one ends. You should be allowed to return the cue if you never hit with it.
Nick
That's not going to happen. After exchanging a few emails with him, that was obvious - I complained about the cracks but rather than ask for a refund, I asked for an explanation from him. All I wanted was some honesty. Instead of admitting it was decepive, he defended the 'check' terminology and sent a plethora of emails from Erik Crisp, where Erik talked about the structural soundness despite the cracks. Erik obviously didn't have a problem with shipping a cue with suface cracks, and he defended the structural soundness.
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm very fair to deal with, and I'll generally eat a loss rather than complain. I rationalized why I should just keep the cue and hope it didn't effect re-sell - goal had been simply to pick up a Sugartree at fair market value, test-ride it, and then break-even. The shaft was butt-ugly dirty and dinged, so I refurbished it, figuring it would give me a better chance of breaking even when I re-sold - looks really good now, with minimal blueing.
Honestly, I don't know if I would have bought the cue if the word 'CRACK' had been used in the description - perhaps I would have, anyway. Tough to say at this point. But it DID irritate the hell out of me when it showed up with surface cracks, and the seller danced around the issue rather than offering a refund. Heck, I probably would have kept the cue, even knowing that the cracks might make selling difficult.
It's not about the money, it's about being fed up with AZ'er seller behavior on this board. This isn't a place you can trust anymore for honest dealings, and that's a shame.
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm very fair to deal with, and I'll generally eat a loss rather than complain. I rationalized why I should just keep the cue and hope it didn't effect re-sell - goal had been simply to pick up a Sugartree at fair market value, test-ride it, and then break-even. The shaft was butt-ugly dirty and dinged, so I refurbished it, figuring it would give me a better chance of breaking even when I re-sold - looks really good now, with minimal blueing.
Honestly, I don't know if I would have bought the cue if the word 'CRACK' had been used in the description - perhaps I would have, anyway. Tough to say at this point. But it DID irritate the hell out of me when it showed up with surface cracks, and the seller danced around the issue rather than offering a refund. Heck, I probably would have kept the cue, even knowing that the cracks might make selling difficult.
It's not about the money, it's about being fed up with AZ'er seller behavior on this board. This isn't a place you can trust anymore for honest dealings, and that's a shame.
Hey all !
First of all I do want to apologize to RunScott for the fact that I had used some terminology that he was not familiar with. That is first and foremost. And I am sorry if anything I type here is disagreeable to you, but in situations like this amicable results can be tough. As I said in emails, I have read your posts and respect what you say. I also believe that you are an honest person and what is said here doesn't change that.
I also want to apologize to Eric Crisp at Sugartree for participating and furthering another Sugartree "frenzied" thread. I have the utmost respect for your work and dedication. I really had no idea things would turn out this way. Please accept my apologies.
But there was one side, this is my side, and everyone here I guess can decide for themselves what they believe is right.
1) The one thing I did not want to do when I put this cue up for sale was to be dishonest about it at all. I tried to state the EXACT condition of the cue with VERY detailed photos. I had the stain on the ferrule, blueness of the shaft, blot on the forearm, and the check/surface cracks. I put everything in a description and on each photo. I spent 3 hours on that post. There was no mal-intent here at all.
2) Runscott did email me as soon as he received the cue and asked me about the condition of the checks/cracks and if they were sound. He did sound truly surprised by them (and I do feel bad about that also). But no one ever mentioned a refund or wanting to return the cue.
And to be truthful, I really don't think it is my position to offer one. Yes he did sound upset, but the information provided to him seemed to be satisfactory. If asked, I would have more than likely refunded anything, less shipping charges. But the word refund never turned up until the cue didn't resell immediately.
3) I used the term "checks" because that is what I always referred to them as. An email from the builder called them cracks but that was way over a year ago. The only reason I even remembered that Email was because the buyer wanted to know about the checks and I remembered that I had saved all the PM's and took the time to dig them all up. But again no mal-intent.
Here is also some links to common woodworking glossaries (first 3 sites pulled up by google when typing "woodworking glossary") just scroll down to the letter C on any of them and you will see "checks".
http://www.woodzone.com/encyclopedia.htm
http://sawdustmaking.com/GLOSSARY/glossary_of__woodworking_t.htm
and one from Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/WoodworkGlossary.html#4
If there was a question about the term or if you were unsure what it was, I could have been contacted. But they were outlined pretty well in the description and photos.
Refunds could have certainly been an option. But in my opinion, once a cue is shot with, that is accepting the condition of the sale. Once the box was open and something was upsetting. That should have been the point to ask for compensation. Not after hitting racks and especially not after reconditioning the shaft.
Runscott, the last thing I wanted to do was make anyone more wary about buying and selling cues online. I tried to be perfectly honest with my entire dealings and did not want to be one of "those" cases you hear on AZB. You were a great buyer and had great communication and FAST payment. I wish things worked out differently and I did PM the other interested parties for you.
Thanks all and I consider the matter closed on my end unless there is any specific questions for me. My conscience is clean on this one. You have both sides, you make up your own minds. The original add is still posted for you to look at. It was modified today though because I had made a slight change when Runscott's sale post hyperlinked it to my original post. But I restored it to the original today when this all came about so everyone had all the information.
Thanks all!
Victor
Vicdotcom
First of all I do want to apologize to RunScott for the fact that I had used some terminology that he was not familiar with. That is first and foremost. And I am sorry if anything I type here is disagreeable to you, but in situations like this amicable results can be tough. As I said in emails, I have read your posts and respect what you say. I also believe that you are an honest person and what is said here doesn't change that.
I also want to apologize to Eric Crisp at Sugartree for participating and furthering another Sugartree "frenzied" thread. I have the utmost respect for your work and dedication. I really had no idea things would turn out this way. Please accept my apologies.
But there was one side, this is my side, and everyone here I guess can decide for themselves what they believe is right.
1) The one thing I did not want to do when I put this cue up for sale was to be dishonest about it at all. I tried to state the EXACT condition of the cue with VERY detailed photos. I had the stain on the ferrule, blueness of the shaft, blot on the forearm, and the check/surface cracks. I put everything in a description and on each photo. I spent 3 hours on that post. There was no mal-intent here at all.
2) Runscott did email me as soon as he received the cue and asked me about the condition of the checks/cracks and if they were sound. He did sound truly surprised by them (and I do feel bad about that also). But no one ever mentioned a refund or wanting to return the cue.
And to be truthful, I really don't think it is my position to offer one. Yes he did sound upset, but the information provided to him seemed to be satisfactory. If asked, I would have more than likely refunded anything, less shipping charges. But the word refund never turned up until the cue didn't resell immediately.
3) I used the term "checks" because that is what I always referred to them as. An email from the builder called them cracks but that was way over a year ago. The only reason I even remembered that Email was because the buyer wanted to know about the checks and I remembered that I had saved all the PM's and took the time to dig them all up. But again no mal-intent.
Here is also some links to common woodworking glossaries (first 3 sites pulled up by google when typing "woodworking glossary") just scroll down to the letter C on any of them and you will see "checks".
http://www.woodzone.com/encyclopedia.htm
http://sawdustmaking.com/GLOSSARY/glossary_of__woodworking_t.htm
and one from Lowes
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/WoodworkGlossary.html#4
If there was a question about the term or if you were unsure what it was, I could have been contacted. But they were outlined pretty well in the description and photos.
Refunds could have certainly been an option. But in my opinion, once a cue is shot with, that is accepting the condition of the sale. Once the box was open and something was upsetting. That should have been the point to ask for compensation. Not after hitting racks and especially not after reconditioning the shaft.
Runscott, the last thing I wanted to do was make anyone more wary about buying and selling cues online. I tried to be perfectly honest with my entire dealings and did not want to be one of "those" cases you hear on AZB. You were a great buyer and had great communication and FAST payment. I wish things worked out differently and I did PM the other interested parties for you.
Thanks all and I consider the matter closed on my end unless there is any specific questions for me. My conscience is clean on this one. You have both sides, you make up your own minds. The original add is still posted for you to look at. It was modified today though because I had made a slight change when Runscott's sale post hyperlinked it to my original post. But I restored it to the original today when this all came about so everyone had all the information.
Thanks all!
Victor
Vicdotcom
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Good
Condition: Please read carefully and see the accompanying pictures for any details. As the cue has been my primary playing cue, there is some bluing of the shaft. There is also a stain on the ferrule and a blot near the collar that were there since I purchased the cue. These can be seen in the photos. The olivewood forearm has some checks that were there when the wood was being turned. The checks were filled with epoxy and cleared by Eric as structurally sound. The finish on the butt is 99%. Please refer to the pictures and let me know if there are any questions
Sorry Runscott
That is a very accurate and honest description!!!! Filled with epoxy which is fine to do did not tell you they were cracks (checks) ??? Now that you can't sell the cue your crying a river. Reading other posts and threads from the past you are really good at this. He don't owe you sh@# and gave a fair 100% honest description. 95% of Azer's are honest. Mabye it's not everybody else
Could you think mabye some of its you???
Condition: Please read carefully and see the accompanying pictures for any details. As the cue has been my primary playing cue, there is some bluing of the shaft. There is also a stain on the ferrule and a blot near the collar that were there since I purchased the cue. These can be seen in the photos. The olivewood forearm has some checks that were there when the wood was being turned. The checks were filled with epoxy and cleared by Eric as structurally sound. The finish on the butt is 99%. Please refer to the pictures and let me know if there are any questions
Sorry Runscott
That is a very accurate and honest description!!!! Filled with epoxy which is fine to do did not tell you they were cracks (checks) ??? Now that you can't sell the cue your crying a river. Reading other posts and threads from the past you are really good at this. He don't owe you sh@# and gave a fair 100% honest description. 95% of Azer's are honest. Mabye it's not everybody else
Could you think mabye some of its you???There were hairline surface checks in the wood to begin with, from square. I have a method I use to stabilize woods like olive to seal the checks, prevent warpage & any further checking. It is a west system/acetone mix that is mixed to an appropriate viscosity to penetrate the wood much as chemical penetrants do. It soaked in the mix for 36 hours, then given a week for the solution to cure. Basically, it's epoxy impregnated olivewood. This is a method I borrowed from fine/intricate woodworking that is used to stabilize burls, soft woods & other unstable woods. I put my own twist on it, substituting epoxy for acrylic plastic but otherwise the method is the same. I have absolutely no doubt as to it's strength & stability, as I have used this method often & for a long time.
This particular cue was built to spec & design for a friend/customer. He was involved entirely. He sold the cue after years of use so he could order a more intricately designed cue. From there, I have no clue as to how the cue was treated or cared for, though I do believe it was well taken care of. Either way, the cue is deep into the secondary market now & has not been affiliated with me or the original owner for years. I am not making any money or involved in any way with the sale of this cue. I just wanted to clarify the originality of the issues at hand.
This particular cue was built to spec & design for a friend/customer. He was involved entirely. He sold the cue after years of use so he could order a more intricately designed cue. From there, I have no clue as to how the cue was treated or cared for, though I do believe it was well taken care of. Either way, the cue is deep into the secondary market now & has not been affiliated with me or the original owner for years. I am not making any money or involved in any way with the sale of this cue. I just wanted to clarify the originality of the issues at hand.
Is it just me or what?bish4201 said:Condition: Please read carefully and see the accompanying pictures for any details. As the cue has been my primary playing cue, there is some bluing of the shaft. There is also a stain on the ferrule and a blot near the collar that were there since I purchased the cue. These can be seen in the photos. The olivewood forearm has some checks that were there when the wood was being turned. The checks were filled with epoxy and cleared by Eric as structurally sound. The finish on the butt is 99%. Please refer to the pictures and let me know if there are any questions
Sorry Runscott
That is a very accurate and honest description!!!! Filled with epoxy which is fine to do did not tell you they were cracks (checks) ??? Now that you can't sell the cue your crying a river. Reading other posts and threads from the past you are really good at this. He don't owe you sh@# and gave a fair 100% honest description. 95% of Azer's are honest. Mabye it's not everybody else
I cannot get the gist of this post.
Btw, checks and cracks are not the same.
I've seen zebrawood, ebony and marblewood check within minutes after opening the shop door when humidity was down to less than 20%.
They did not crack or rattle after though.
JoeyInCali said:
They are the same, just different by severety. Checks are hairline, and cracks are wide. In either case, it's the wood grains & fibers separating, creating a void. In machining we used to use a magnaflux machine to find invisible checks in metal, but with wood it's tougher.
i agree checks are cracks,but there comes a time when a check can not be called a check.it has to be called a crack.i am sure the cue is sound as it has been around for years with no problems,and i know that West system is the nuts.it is stronger than the wood.they build boats out of wood and west system epoxy only with no nails or screws and they are fully functional in the ocean.i would have to see the cue for myself to dtermine whether it is a crack or a check.if it is obviously a large wide crack and not a small check then i would say the add was misleading,if they sre checks then they are checks.i wish they would get rid of the term checks and just say tiny cracks or fissures or something.some people don't know what a check is.
i think what stands out here the most is that he called the seller after receiving the cue and described the problem and his not being satisfied with the cue. then didn't ask for a refund.
bish4201 said:Condition: Please read carefully and see the accompanying pictures for any details. As the cue has been my primary playing cue, there is some bluing of the shaft. There is also a stain on the ferrule and a blot near the collar that were there since I purchased the cue. These can be seen in the photos. The olivewood forearm has some checks that were there when the wood was being turned. The checks were filled with epoxy and cleared by Eric as structurally sound. The finish on the butt is 99%. Please refer to the pictures and let me know if there are any questions
Sorry Runscott
That is a very accurate and honest description!!!! Filled with epoxy which is fine to do did not tell you they were cracks (checks) ??? Now that you can't sell the cue your crying a river. Reading other posts and threads from the past you are really good at this. He don't owe you sh@# and gave a fair 100% honest description. 95% of Azer's are honest. Mabye it's not everybody else
Painpool - I doubt anyone is too concerned with your opinion. I realize you still hold a grudge because myself and others outed you for ripping AZ'er s off, but you aren't fooling anyone by reappearing using a different handle. Please go back where you came from.
Sincerely, Scott