Superbilliard Expo Amateur Payouts --very confused about the $$

[uwate]

I was thinking about going to the next SBE and getting in a few of the amateur events. So I was on the SBE site and started looking at the payouts. $75 entry, limit of 1024 players. In 2005 they had 775 players @ 75 each (?) and the first prize was $5,000.

I do not understand the math here, does anyone have the complete payouts for the SBE amateur events? The way it seems to me is that with 775 players they had $58,125.00 in the pot without a cent of added money. First prize payed $5,000 or 8.6% of the pot. Second place was $2000 or 3.4% and 3/4th was $1,375.00 or 2.3% of the money. That is only 16.6% of the money in the top 4 places. Where did all the money go? Do they payout to like 500th place?

The payout seems like Hopkins is getting the first prize money. Please fill me in if I am wrong...

 

[Barbara]

The entry fee IS NOT $75...

The entry fee to all the events is $50. The additional $25 pays for your Expo pass to the venue for 4 days.

Some monies in the events are taken out and added to the second chance events.

Barbara

I was thinking about going to the next SBE and getting in a few of the amateur events. So I was on the SBE site and started looking at the payouts. $75 entry, limit of 1024 players. In 2005 they had 775 players @ 75 each (?) and the first prize was $5,000.

I do not understand the math here, does anyone have the complete payouts for the SBE amateur events? The way it seems to me is that with 775 players they had $58,125.00 in the pot without a cent of added money. First prize payed $5,000 or 8.6% of the pot. Second place was $2000 or 3.4% and 3/4th was $1,375.00 or 2.3% of the money. That is only 16.6% of the money in the top 4 places. Where did all the money go? Do they payout to like 500th place?

The payout seems like Hopkins is getting the first prize money. Please fill me in if I am wrong...

 

[uwate]

So that would mean for 775 players its $38,750 in the purse minus deductions for second chance tournaments. Isnt a bit odd that a primary event would have zero added but the second chance events get added money but its money that comes from the primary event? Surely it cant be alot, like a 1000 or so right?

This math still seems out of whack. Even if they take 3.5k out to add to the second chance events you have $35k and first four places paid out less than 1/3 of that.

What are the normal ratios for a tournament payout?

 

[Egg McDogit]

this is common for some of the bigger tournaments. someone I know placed top 5 in one of these tournies and after accounting for lodging and quarters, actually lost money.

So that would mean for 775 players its $38,750 in the purse minus deductions for second chance tournaments. Isnt a bit odd that a primary event would have zero added but the second chance events get added money but its money that comes from the primary event? Surely it cant be alot, like a 1000 or so right?

This math still seems out of whack. Even if they take 3.5k out to add to the second chance events you have $35k and first four places paid out less than 1/3 of that.

What are the normal ratios for a tournament payout?

 

[Barbara]

So that would mean for 775 players its $38,750 in the purse minus deductions for second chance tournaments. Isnt a bit odd that a primary event would have zero added but the second chance events get added money but its money that comes from the primary event? Surely it cant be alot, like a 1000 or so right?

This math still seems out of whack. Even if they take 3.5k out to add to the second chance events you have $35k and first four places paid out less than 1/3 of that.

What are the normal ratios for a tournament payout?

Well, I'm not going to justify what gets taken out of the prize fund, but you have to remember, you didn't have to feed the tables a dollar a rack like Vegas, and someone has to pay Diamond for the rental and setup of those tables.

And not to mention a lot of the Diamond equipment that gets stolen. We actually ran out of cue balls.

Barbara

 

[uwate]

Barbara...or anyone else...do you have the 2005 amateur open complete payout info? This would tell exactly how much was taken in and how much was paid out.

 

[Barbara]

Arrrrrrgggghhhh!!! I forgot to write that down!!!

I know that 1st was $5000, 2nd was $2000, 33-64th was $440, I just can't remember the numbers in between.

It has to be reported somewhere.

Barbara

Barbara...or anyone else...do you have the 2005 amateur open complete payout info? This would tell exactly how much was taken in and how much was paid out.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Barbara...or anyone else...do you have the 2005 amateur open complete payout info? This would tell exactly how much was taken in and how much was paid out.

UWate, I put some of this in the other VF thread:

I think the Expo provides a tremendously valuable service to the industry and the fans. But there are basically only two reasons to go to Valley Forge – looking at equipment, and gambling. If you’re interested in either of those things, then you might as well play the tournament also. But if you’re NOT interested in those two things, and are simply looking to play in a tournament with fair payouts, Valley Forge isn’t it.

In my opinion, this tournament is making three significant mistakes.

1) Separate the entry fee ($50) from the Expo fee ($25). Make sure the players fully understand this is a $50 tournament, not a $75 tournament. Barbara corrected me on this just a few weeks ago!

2) Make the players pay for the tables, but only a quarter a game. This would more than make up Diamond’s fee, I think. It doesn’t hurt the players, and it keeps the money in the prize pool.

3) No money should be removed for 2nd chance tournaments. This is kind of ludicrous, actually. If someone wants to play a tournament after he loses the first, that’s cool, but he should be paying another entry fee. They do that with MUCH success at the BCA show in Vegas – those mini-tournaments run like crazy all day and night.

Once again - usual disclaimer - Dawn and Allen (and staff, including our probably very tired Barbara) put on an excellent show every year. But you'll be happier if you think of the tournament as something to do on the side, not something that makes any financial sense.

- Steve

 

[uwate]

Steve,
Agree with you 100%. I'm still on the fence though as to whether to try to pencil in next March to be in Philadelphia.

I think what will guide me most is to take a look at the payouts. Does anyone have the 2005 complete payouts of the amateur event? Or any year for that matter, as long as I can figure out how many people were in and what the entry fee was.

 

[Eydie Romano]

I have to add my 2 cents..

The tables cost atleast $150.00 each to bring in. No and's, if's or butt's about it. Weather it is 10 tables or 3 truckloads which were there, that's Diamonds rate per table. PERIOD. Now, keep in mind, that lights that were hung there are EXTRA. AND, keep in mind that Valley Forge Convention Center is UNION, Yes, I said UNION. That means there it cost Allen for every table that comes in and goes out of that convention center.

AT Rosemont Convention Center here in Chicago, where one of the upcoming IPT events is going to be held. I checked out this property years ago. They wanted $150.00 back then to move them in, and ANOTHER $150.00 to pick em up and bring em back to the truck. Basically, the set up cost's more than the table rental.

There is just no math in this venue, period. You can't do it nor can you expect to get correct numbers without knowing everything that goes into this event. So, please don't start any controversy. This is a great event and the payout is just what it is and worth attending.

BTW Bob placed in the top 64 and brought home $440.00. I am happy with that.

 

[uwate]

Thanks for posting. I wasnt trying to start up controversy as much as trying to figure out whether its worth it to go. The payout structure made me very confused, it seemed like Hopkins was the only big winner. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on some elements to the final equation I clearly wasnt seeing.

I still would like to see the payouts if anyone has them.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

The tables cost at least $150.00 each to bring in.

Thanks for the information, Eydie. It's been so long since I've been to VF that I don't remember - do you have to pay per game for the non-tournament tables, or are those free also?

And congrats to Bob!

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Barbara]

3) No money should be removed for 2nd chance tournaments. This is kind of ludicrous, actually. If someone wants to play a tournament after he loses the first, that’s cool, but he should be paying another entry fee. They do that with MUCH success at the BCA show in Vegas – those mini-tournaments run like crazy all day and night.

I'm probably wrong about that. I heard that Allen added money into women's second chance to enhance the payout. I didn't hear anything being added to the men's second chance.

Once again - usual disclaimer - Dawn and Allen (and staff, including our probably very tired Barbara) put on an excellent show every year. But you'll be happier if you think of the tournament as something to do on the side, not something that makes any financial sense.

Exhausted is a more accurate description. I actually started losing my voice at the staff party and had to leave. Thanks for your kind words Steve!

- Steve

Barbara~~~fading fast...

 

[ScottW]

Dealing with unions can be a real PITA - costly as in $$$, in delays, etc.

I used to work at CNN back in the day, and got sent to the Rep/Dem national conventions in '96. Being in charge of getting a lot of equipment set up/taken down in both cities (San Diego and Chicago), I got to experience first hand dealing with union guys in Chicago, and the lack of a union presence in San Diego. It was like night and day.

Unions have their places, and benefit workers to great degrees - and I've got no problem with that - but when the union workers use that to an insane advantage, then it's a problem.

 

[calcuttaman]

The entry fee to all the events is $50. The additional $25 pays for your Expo pass to the venue for 4 days.

And I don't have a problem with that. I do think the website should reflect that though.

Some monies in the events are taken out and added to the second chance events.

From the website I see that it's $50 to play in this (the same as the main event) and you add money to it???

 

[JAM]

Just seeing the SBE up front and close, I cannot imagine how much monies have to be expended not only for the renting of the Valley Forge Conference Center, three levels this year as I understand it, but then there's the staff who keep things running smoothly.

There must have been over 200 tables set up this year, and Greg Sullivan and his crew are to be commended for doing another great job, as usual. This year, the Tour Blue cloth was used, and some of the spectators stated that they thought it was much easier on the eyes. I got a chance to speak to one of Greg's managers who installs the tables, and he told me that the action pit table pockets were a little tighter than previous years. BTW, they don't shim the pockets, but instead have the rails fitted to ensure a tighter pocket. Those action tables sure do bring a lot of joy to railbirds and players alike. Very much appreciated.

Since this thread is about the amateur event, how about giving Josh Brothers a standing ovation for his mighty fine win. He received a huge beautiful trophy and $5,000. You should have seen him in all his glory. He was one happy camper. His girlfriend, Pamela Treadway, won the ladies' second chance event and receive a trophy and cash for her victory as well. The two of them were on cloud nine. BTW, Eurowest picked up Josh Brothers as one of Eurowest's representative players, and he couldn't be more proud. Just as an aside, Pamela Treadway won the ladies event at last year's SBE.

Right after Josh won, I congratulated him and gave him a big hug. He was overcome by emotion, but was so very happy. He's been a frequent player on the regional tournament trail, and he told me that his recent victory on the Tiger/Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour right before the SBE gave him a little boost of confidence.

Here's a picture I took of Pamela and Josh last year at a tournament in Hagerstown, MD. I'm sure we will be reading more great things about the two of them up ahead. Congratulations to both of them!

JAM

 

[JamisonNeu]

Shut up

Shut up, throw your own if you don't like the payout. If you wan't to accuse someone of being a theif then say it don't just ask a question like you don't know what you are implying makes you look like a chicken frog. Besides if your not a loser then you don't complain about 5000 cash on a 100 dollar investment.

On a happy note. One giant Thank you goes out from me to Allen, Dawn and family. And all the staff for your incredible hard work and near perfect event. I loved the show and will be going again in August the next one and the next one and the next one........Forever. I love it can't wait to see Penn in the summer. Thanks again.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I had a great time there,food wasnt great,alot of good stuff for sale,i had tiger do a wrap on my cue,picked up a nice case at bargain prices and a few cues,its a good place to buy equipment and to see a TON of action,as for the tournament,as for the majority of them,in the end there isnt really money there which is sad,there isnt really money in pool,go play cards if you want money,alot fo players know and do that.Oh and JAM i saw you when i was watching Keith play Danny,i was too bashful to say hello,Keith gave me a few laughs although about the racking,lol.

 

[fish on]

I have to add my 2 cents..

The tables cost atleast $150.00 each to bring in. No and's, if's or butt's about it. Weather it is 10 tables or 3 truckloads which were there, that's Diamonds rate per table. PERIOD. Now, keep in mind, that lights that were hung there are EXTRA. AND, keep in mind that Valley Forge Convention Center is UNION, Yes, I said UNION. That means there it cost Allen for every table that comes in and goes out of that convention center.

AT Rosemont Convention Center here in Chicago, where one of the upcoming IPT events is going to be held. I checked out this property years ago. They wanted $150.00 back then to move them in, and ANOTHER $150.00 to pick em up and bring em back to the truck. Basically, the set up cost's more than the table rental.

There is just no math in this venue, period. You can't do it nor can you expect to get correct numbers without knowing everything that goes into this event. So, please don't start any controversy. This is a great event and the payout is just what it is and worth attending.

BTW Bob placed in the top 64 and brought home $440.00. I am happy with that.

Who told you Union house ? Philly center city is but VF is not. Yeah Chicago is 100% union suburbs of philly is self proclaimed open shop and promotes same on web site check it out. Leave the unions out of this one!!!

 

[Scott Lee]

Thanks for posting. I wasnt trying to start up controversy as much as trying to figure out whether its worth it to go. The payout structure made me very confused, it seemed like Hopkins was the only big winner. Thank you for taking the time to fill me in on some elements to the final equation I clearly wasnt seeing.

I still would like to see the payouts if anyone has them.

uwate...You're correct about Allen & Dawn being the big winners, just completely wrong about where the "win" comes from. Allen & Dawn spend the entire year setting up for this show. They invest 1000's of hours in every detail...which is why it is as successful as it is. They DON'T make (much, if any) $$$ off of the tournaments...that is chicken feed. Their windfall comes from booth rental fees. That is where 'trade shows' make their dough. I'll bet Allen makes the majority of his yearly income on this show...and he deserves it. Everyone works very hard to make this annual show a success. Others have tried to duplicate the Hopkins' formula in other parts of the country, with no success. Allen figured out a unique niche in the pool world 11 yrs. ago, and has built on that success, branching out into promoting other events as well. You can't blame him for being a smart businessman, and realizing that the only real money to made in pool, is in the business (or entertainment) end, not in tournament play or gambling. Perhaps the IPT will change that perspective, but that remains to be seen.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com