Swanee 2013:: No jump cues?

[fast&loose designs]

Accidentally posted this in the latest Predator thread:

Think part of the problem now is how and what we learned as we learn to play pool. It's also generational. Those of us who grew up watching Crane, Balsis, Mosconi, Cranfield, etc. learned to play three cushion billiards. Not to be world champ but to understand the motion of the cue ball.

Since the advent of Texas Express, the need to understand three cushion or even straight rail billiards and the diamond system has decreased (MHO). Get out your jump cue and voila! Not sure what this generation is being taught. Read and watched musing from Stan, Randy, Scott, CJ, JBr and others. Sometimes I wish I was an early teen again and have the advantage of such great teachers.

Yes, it was great to have Irving, Mike S., Larry H. and some other great locals helping out. Learned mostly by watching, listening and racking. Don't remember ever having a formal structured lesson as some new players get today.

Oh well, the grass is always greener on the other side. At least till you get there. Sorry for the rambling.

Lyn

Every generation learns something new. Being close-minded, and feeling that the way YOU play, or the way YOU learned, or the players YOU learned from is the BEST and TRUEST way to play is arrogant. The generation the preceeded mine learned the Filipino moves like the kick-safe, and moves by top Americans like banking in OP. My generation (I'm 28), along with the previous one, has added jumping to the bag of knowledge all players should have. The straight pool generation of the 30s-60s didn't learn a lot about kicking, 2-way shots, or playing position for safes. Those techniques simply hadn't been discovered and exploited. There is absolutely nothing wrong from learning pool from instructors. We can't all learn by gambling, tournament play, or pros.

 

[KRJ]

Oh my apologies then. I did assume that you didn't have the same type of experience that I have had with the way you are talking about the comparisons in kicking and jumping instruction.

Well yes, then certainly we must agree to disagree. I have to say though that I would be more than happy to spend some time with you and help you to learn how to teach people to kick in a shorter time than you are currently able to and perhaps in person I could demonstrate some of the nuances of jumping that I appreciate. Maybe after a nice discussion we could both change our perspectives a little.

there is no "short cuts" to be able to kick. yes, folks can learn quickly when they are told do this, do that, but trying to take it all in, and then recall everything at game time is another story.

There might be a reason why there are LOTS of DVD's, and books on kicking, but very few on jumping. Just saying.... see ya

 

[cardiac kid]

Every generation learns something new. Being close-minded, and feeling that the way YOU play, or the way YOU learned, or the players YOU learned from is the BEST and TRUEST way to play is arrogant. The generation the preceeded mine learned the Filipino moves like the kick-safe, and moves by top Americans like banking in OP. My generation (I'm 28), along with the previous one, has added jumping to the bag of knowledge all players should have. The straight pool generation of the 30s-60s didn't learn a lot about kicking, 2-way shots, or playing position for safes. Those techniques simply hadn't been discovered and exploited. There is absolutely nothing wrong from learning pool from instructors. We can't all learn by gambling, tournament play, or pros.

Chris,

Perhaps you are not aware the generation before mine played roll out nine ball. Texas Express is a relatively new format. Crane and Lassiter didn't have to kick or jump. They simply rolled out to a place where they felt their opponent would pass the shot back. Sigel and Hall changed that game. TE is a result of their incredible shot making abilities. The game of nine ball has changed dramatically over the years. As a result, some people sometimes wish for the "good old days when times were simpler" not necessarily better.

Sorry to see you feel my comments are arrogant. Unlike you, I have over three generations of play behind me. I've experienced the different types of nine ball. Each had its good and bad points. Of all the changes allowed over the years, the only one I disagree with is allowing jump cues. If you can jump with your full playing cue, have at it!

Perhaps you should re-think your statement. I've re-read mine several times. Don't see where I stated my way is better than yours or anyone elses. Think I stated what I saw as I grew up and how I learned to play pool.

Guess I'm not the only one with a too thin skin.

Lyn

 

[JB Cases]

The issue with those shots is that they should be pretty much impossible to do. It's only a trick cue that allows someone to do those shots.

Why? Why should they be impossible? The cue is the trick?

That's the same thing as saying that chalk is the "trick" that allows for spin shots.

Or fast cloth is the "trick" responsible for four rail draw shots.

Or that vulcanized rubber is the "trick" behind kick shots.

And actually you are completely right. Chalk, cloth, rubber, tapered cues with leather tips are all TRICKS that allow for pool and billiards to be played at the HIGHEST level. They allow humans to use those tools to make the balls do whatever is HUMANLY possible.

Each of those inventions improved the game tremendously by adding in two important things, more available shots and consistency.

And the jump cue is no different.

It adds a much wider range of POSSSIBLE shots and a consistent tool to perform those shots with. The human still has to direct the cue and make it hit the cue ball. The cue only makes the shot possible it does not make the shot. The same as a chalked 58" cue makes it possible to draw the cue ball two rails but does not actually make the shot.

I probably could not do many of the magic tricks people pull off either if they gave me the same equipment they use. But I'm willing to bet if you take away the trick cards and hidden strings, they could not either.

Um, ok? That is making my point for me. Someone said that any ten year old can do what I do if he has 20 years of experience.

I don't think the jump cue has done anything to advance the game to a higher level.

1. Added a greater amount of possible shots to master.
2. Forced players to learn better safety play.
3. Adds another level of excitement to the game. (crowds LOVE well played jump shots.)

Leather cue tip over wood, yep. Nice rubber on tables to allow for even banks, yep.

Agreed.

Jump cues are like playing with those lines you can turn on in Virtual Pool,

Really? Can I see some video of you doing jump shots? Show us what you can do consistently? I bet you find it's nowhere near as easy as you think it is. I will do one later with some shots for you to try. I am taking a flyer here because I don't know you but I will give you $100 if you put up an answer video inside of 24 hours doing the same shots I do on the video. Not betting, just paying for your time. I am pretty sure that you can't do the shots I can because you probably haven't practiced them. However IF it's so easy then you shouldn't need to practice them, each shot should come to you in a few tries at most.

sure it's easier and you can do some fancy cut shots, but what's the point? Like cheating on a test, you can study, pay attention to get a good grade, or just pay some guy $50 for the answers.

Well if you don't believe that there is any skill in it then there is hardly any way you are going to change your mind. I know what I know based on extensive experience.

I know it is upsetting and sounds arrogant when I say that I have had a tremendous amount of experience demonstrating how to jump with a jump cue and teaching others to jump. I have even taught several pros and shortstops better methods and techniques, guys who are much better overall players than myself. I can't change your mind with words. I am 99.99% positive that if you and I were together on a pool table I could change your mind. Well, hopefully you will see the video and try the shots and come to the conclusion that perhaps my point of view has some merit.

 

[daphish1]

Every generation learns something new. Being close-minded, and feeling that the way YOU play, or the way YOU learned, or the players YOU learned from is the BEST and TRUEST way to play is arrogant. The generation the preceeded mine learned the Filipino moves like the kick-safe, and moves by top Americans like banking in OP. My generation (I'm 28), along with the previous one, has added jumping to the bag of knowledge all players should have. The straight pool generation of the 30s-60s didn't learn a lot about kicking, 2-way shots, or playing position for safes. Those techniques simply hadn't been discovered and exploited. There is absolutely nothing wrong from learning pool from instructors. We can't all learn by gambling, tournament play, or pros.

Making something easier in the game doesn't necessarily make it good. I don't think you'll find one person say that they are against the jump shot, just the short cue.

Look at golf they do things like ban certain clubs and ban certain technologies used in golf balls because they go against the spirit of the game.

 

[JB Cases]

Chris,

Perhaps you are not aware the generation before mine played roll out nine ball. Texas Express is a relatively new format. Crane and Lassiter didn't have to kick or jump. They simply rolled out to a place where they felt their opponent would pass the shot back. Sigel and Hall changed that game. TE is a result of their incredible shot making abilities. The game of nine ball has changed dramatically over the years. As a result, some people sometimes wish for the "good old days when times were simpler" not necessarily better.

Sorry to see you feel my comments are arrogant. Unlike you, I have over three generations of play behind me. I've experienced the different types of nine ball. Each had its good and bad points. Of all the changes allowed over the years, the only one I disagree with is allowing jump cues. If you can jump with your full playing cue, have at it!

Perhaps you should re-think your statement. I've re-read mine several times. Don't see where I stated my way is better than yours or anyone elses. Think I stated what I saw as I grew up and how I learned to play pool.

Guess I'm not the only one with a too thin skin.

Lyn

I also grew up in the two-foul roll out period. I remember when all of us kids were practicing jumping with a full cue at Jamacia Joes.

What I didn't know then which I know now is that aside from having to know the proper technique for a full cue jump some cues are just better suited to jumping than others.

So you could have the BEST jump technique in the world and if I would have put a 1987 Meucci in your hands you would look like a pure d-player if you tried to jump a ball.

But if I put a Tim Scruggs sneaky pete in your hands you would look like the jump champion of the world.

Jump cues are the equalizer that takes the cue out of the equation. Now every possible jump shot is open to every player and only the skill of the player makes a difference.

It doesn't punish the guy who has great full cue skills and a full cue that is suitable to jumping because that guy has a huge skill advantage over everyone else already if he would move to a jump cue. And that guy has another major major advantage. Since he is really good with a full cue he knows which shots are better to take with a full cue and has the ability to take them. Someone who never bothers to learn to use a full cue because they lean on the jump cue doesn't have that ability in their arsenal.

 

[JB Cases]

there is no "short cuts" to be able to kick. yes, folks can learn quickly when they are told do this, do that, but trying to take it all in, and then recall everything at game time is another story.

There might be a reason why there are LOTS of DVD's, and books on kicking, but very few on jumping. Just saying.... see ya

Well then we absolutely disagree. I see a kicking system as a shortcut. Sorry but if I give a person the task to hit a ball and no method of measuring then the might hit it perfectly on the first try or it might take them 10-15 tries to work it out. And even after those 10-15 tries they might not be able to hit it five times out of ten.

Give another person the same shot and teach them how to measure it and I bet they hit the ball within five tries at most AND more importantly after they are comfortable with measuring the kick they can hit the object ball 90-100% of the time.

I think that there are very few on jumping because it's easier to teach a kicking method over video and through books than it is to teach jumping. With jumping, as I have said for years on here, the shooter's stroking ability and stance is a key factor. I have had many decent players at my booth who absolutely could not jump a ball with a jump cue UNTIL I fixed their stance and stroke. In fact it became a competition between myself and my staff as to who could spot and fix problems faster.

With a video demonstration it's the same as my own personal demonstrations. I can show you what I do but if you have some fundamental issue you might think you are doing what I am showing but in reality you aren't. With personal observation I could spot and fix those issues.

 

[hang-the-9]

Jump cues or not is the same thing as arguing about religion with someone. The other side will never agree, and just keep trying to make it's points.

Soon as the majority of the pro players agree that using a jump cue is good (not just the fact that they use it because others do), and tournaments stop not allowing it's use, I'm sure people that are against jump cues will come around. I don't see any pro players say they are against chalk, nor are tournaments banning rubber rails.

But now, all I see is a trick cue to allow shots you can't make with a regular cue, pro players almost 100% saying they do not like the jump cue in the game and half the tournaments not allowing their use.

You're right, I can't make the jumps you can, because A. I don't own a jump cue, and the jump cue I bought my son is probably not good enough to jump that well B. I almost never jump. At the same time, I can hop over 1/2 or more of a ball with no practice well enough to hit it, with no effort aside from being able to spend $40 on a short cue with a plastic tip. If I put in a 314 shaft with a hand-make custom Kamui tip on a $5,000 custom cue in the hands of D player, I doubt they can move the cue ball even 10% as well as a skilled player, but give them a jump cue and they'd be jumping all over the place. Everyone I speak with that is studies the game laughs at how easy it is to use a jump cue and the fact that they are allowed anywhere. I remember a while back in a pool room in CT some guy brought some black twig to show someone, he was able to jump a ball about 1" away from the cue ball. Then he handed it over to someone who said "I never tried a jump cue before", and the were able to jump over a ball not much further away after a few tries. Is that what we want?

Why? Why should they be impossible? The cue is the trick?

That's the same thing as saying that chalk is the "trick" that allows for spin shots.

Or fast cloth is the "trick" responsible for four rail draw shots.

Or that vulcanized rubber is the "trick" behind kick shots.

And actually you are completely right. Chalk, cloth, rubber, tapered cues with leather tips are all TRICKS that allow for pool and billiards to be played at the HIGHEST level. They allow humans to use those tools to make the balls do whatever is HUMANLY possible.

Each of those inventions improved the game tremendously by adding in two important things, more available shots and consistency.

And the jump cue is no different.

It adds a much wider range of POSSSIBLE shots and a consistent tool to perform those shots with. The human still has to direct the cue and make it hit the cue ball. The cue only makes the shot possible it does not make the shot. The same as a chalked 58" cue makes it possible to draw the cue ball two rails but does not actually make the shot.






Um, ok? That is making my point for me. Someone said that any ten year old can do what I do if he has 20 years of experience.



1. Added a greater amount of possible shots to master.
2. Forced players to learn better safety play.
3. Adds another level of excitement to the game. (crowds LOVE well played jump shots.)



Agreed.



Really? Can I see some video of you doing jump shots? Show us what you can do consistently? I bet you find it's nowhere near as easy as you think it is. I will do one later with some shots for you to try. I am taking a flyer here because I don't know you but I will give you $100 if you put up an answer video inside of 24 hours doing the same shots I do on the video. Not betting, just paying for your time. I am pretty sure that you can't do the shots I can because you probably haven't practiced them. However IF it's so easy then you shouldn't need to practice them, each shot should come to you in a few tries at most.



Well if you don't believe that there is any skill in it then there is hardly any way you are going to change your mind. I know what I know based on extensive experience.

I know it is upsetting and sounds arrogant when I say that I have had a tremendous amount of experience demonstrating how to jump with a jump cue and teaching others to jump. I have even taught several pros and shortstops better methods and techniques, guys who are much better overall players than myself. I can't change your mind with words. I am 99.99% positive that if you and I were together on a pool table I could change your mind. Well, hopefully you will see the video and try the shots and come to the conclusion that perhaps my point of view has some merit.

 

[1 Lone Wolf]

Have you heard of Willie , irving , ralph , luther , etc. I dont believe these guys ever heard of or would have believed in jump cues. they played the game like it was supposed to play it, GOOD SAFETY, GOTTA KICK. THATS POOL!!!!!

 

[vapoolplayer]

Have you heard of Willie , irving , ralph , luther , etc. I dont believe these guys ever heard of or would have believed in jump cues. they played the game like it was supposed to play it, GOOD SAFETY, GOTTA KICK. THATS POOL!!!!!

Just because it hadn't been invented and they had never heard of a jump cue, doesn't mean they wouldn't have used one.

You're speculating on something you have absolutely no idea about.

They didn't play pool how its "supposed" to be played, they played it how it "had" to be played with the available equipment.

They may have used a jump cue, they may not have used one, we will never know and to speculate if they would or wouldn't is just idiotic.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Same story, different setting, different time............people don't like change.

People used to walk everywhere, then the wheel was invented, and people used horse drawn carriages and such.......until someone said "hey, I'll just make something thats faster and takes less time."

People have been kicking for years until someone said "hey, I'll just make something that's faster and takes less time."

I'm not saying kicking doesn't still have its purposes, as it absolutely does, but times change, get used to it. Jumping and jump cues are part of the game just like anything else now.

The next time you have a headache and take an advil, remember, people used to drill holes in their skulls to cure headaches.........feel free to keep the "old" ways. :thumbup:

 

[HawaiianEye]

Can someone please tell me one instance where jumping damaged the slate!!! That's insane... I would bet you couldn't drop a ball off the to of a 2 story building and have it damage slate!

From what I've observed, jumping promotes the idea that it is easier to do than it really is. That causes "bangers" to attempt it and that is where the damage to the table comes from. I've seen people dig the tips of their cues into the cloth thousands of times attempting to jump over a ball.

 

[HawaiianEye]

secret of the Road: when a situation arises that a jump shot is a better option but jump cues are not allowed, you just pick a wall Cue without any tip and jump the cue ball with it. Since many pool halls don`t care to keep their sticks in good condition it is easy to find a stick with no Tip. You can get a real good jump with that damaged stick.

I don't know where you grew up playing, but the pool hall I worked at would ban you for "intentionally" using a house cue with no tip to hit the balls with. I fixed hundreds of sticks there over the years and we didn't take kindly to people damaging the cues worse than they already were.

 

[donny mills]

Years? So with all the books and videos out there teaching kicking methods you still think it takes years?

I will be willing to bet that I can teach any C-player to make 90% of kick shots in two weeks or less. I can teach them to make one rail kicks in less than one hour.

You're right anyone can learn to jump in less than a day. But it takes much practice to learn to do it really well.

I bet Shawn Putnam put in a lot more than a day perfecting his skill with the jump cue.

I respectfully disagree with you Donny and if you happen to make it to a show where I am I will be happy to demonstrate what I mean.

I think it takes years. If it doesn't then why can't anyone kick like the pinoys? Videos? Lol if those are so good then the guys I give the last 6 to should be able to watch a couple videos and start kicking like Efren. haha yeah right! Efren will shorten up a kick using just the right amount of draw on new cloth, old cloth or whatever the conditions are. The guys who make these videos, can they kick like the pinoys? lol.

Or how about that stupid super short jump cue. I remember back around 2000 - 2001 I use to give this guy the 678 playing 9 ball (I probably played the 6 or 7 under how I do know) and I would watch this guy jump over a ball that was like 2 inches in front of the cue ball. There was no skill in that! It is what you call a joke!

And yes I do use jump cues and I will get the best one out there. I only use them because everybody else does. I don't want to be at a disadvantage. Gambling match no jump cues unless it's a heist of course.

 

[arps]

no jump cues?
no problem - use your playing cue for jumping.

 

[jayman]

I don't know where you grew up playing, but the pool hall I worked at would ban you for "intentionally" using a house cue with no tip to hit the balls with. I fixed hundreds of sticks there over the years and we didn't take kindly to people damaging the cues worse than they already were.

You hang out in some uptight places. I spend many thousands of my hard earned dollars in the bars and pool halls every year. I have never been in one that would ban me for ****ing up an already ****ed up house cue. They would probably congratulate me for a great shot.

How much is a 1/8 of inch of ferule on a piece of shit house cue worth these days compared to a regular customer that drinks, eats, and plays pool on a regular basis?? They would have to idiots to "ban" there bread and butter.

 

[gromulan]

I think it takes years. If it doesn't then why can't anyone kick like the pinoys? Videos? Lol if those are so good then the guys I give the last 6 to should be able to watch a couple videos and start kicking like Efren. haha yeah right! Efren will shorten up a kick using just the right amount of draw on new cloth, old cloth or whatever the conditions are. The guys who make these videos, can they kick like the pinoys? lol.

Or how about that stupid super short jump cue. I remember back around 2000 - 2001 I use to give this guy the 678 playing 9 ball (I probably played the 6 or 7 under how I do know) and I would watch this guy jump over a ball that was like 2 inches in front of the cue ball. There was no skill in that! It is what you call a joke!

And yes I do use jump cues and I will get the best one out there. I only use them because everybody else does. I don't want to be at a disadvantage. Gambling match no jump cues unless it's a heist of course.

Donny is right on the money here. The notion that you can teach someone to kick like a pro in just a few hours is absurd. Systems help, but they're only the beginning. Besides, the hard part is not just in hitting the kick, but in making it the right way to maximize your winning percentage. At the highest levels, you don't need ball in hand to beat someone, you just need a shot, and your amateurs with an hour or two of kicking instruction are going to leave that on like all the time.

He's also right on about the super short cues, or the old 'gas-powered' sticks with the plastic tips from back in the day. You could use those things and jump literally anything even when the balls were less than an inch apart, and they sold like hot cakes for a while but eventually everyone agreed that they made it too easy and they were banned when the 40"/leather tip restriction was put in. Except in my mind the 40" inch thing is just an arbitrary number. They could have just as easily made it 55" and then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What I do know though is that if I showed up to play, say, John Barton, or any of the other pro-jumpers, and pulled out a super short jump cue to escape from a snooker that they could never get out of with their 40" cue, they'd scream foul or bullsh*t or whatever (and I can promise they would because I was there back in the 90s when, say, Howard Vickery was using one and that's exactly what happened). So why is a 15" cue bullsh*t but a 40" cue isn't?

 

[weakfingers]

And that's his fault for not practicing. I practice both skills because they are different and a good player needs to know when the jump is the best shot and when it's better to kick and how to do either.

If you can give him the last six then he needs to spend a lot more time on the rest of his game.

There are a ton of trick shot artists that could spot you ten attempts and drill you at the trick shots and you in turn could give them the five out and drill them in nine ball.

I have to say I agree with JB here.

Kicking takes a lot of skill, but jump cues encourage better safeties. Make it so that the guy can't jump if you're going to play a safety!

Also, it's important to have both skills. Sometimes, a masse, jump, or kick may be more favorable due to the outcome should you miss the shot.

Those who can't kick, jump. The same is true the opposite way; those who can't jump, will only kick!

 

[JB Cases]

Donny is right on the money here. The notion that you can teach someone to kick like a pro in just a few hours is absurd. Systems help, but they're only the beginning. Besides, the hard part is not just in hitting the kick, but in making it the right way to maximize your winning percentage. At the highest levels, you don't need ball in hand to beat someone, you just need a shot, and your amateurs with an hour or two of kicking instruction are going to leave that on like all the time.

He's also right on about the super short cues, or the old 'gas-powered' sticks with the plastic tips from back in the day. You could use those things and jump literally anything even when the balls were less than an inch apart, and they sold like hot cakes for a while but eventually everyone agreed that they made it too easy and they were banned when the 40"/leather tip restriction was put in. Except in my mind the 40" inch thing is just an arbitrary number. They could have just as easily made it 55" and then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

What I do know though is that if I showed up to play, say, John Barton, or any of the other pro-jumpers, and pulled out a super short jump cue to escape from a snooker that they could never get out of with their 40" cue, they'd scream foul or bullsh*t or whatever (and I can promise they would because I was there back in the 90s when, say, Howard Vickery was using one and that's exactly what happened). So why is a 15" cue bullsh*t but a 40" cue isn't?

I will say this. If we match up you can use anything you want to to shoot the balls as long as you can shoot in 60 seconds and you don't harm the other equipment or people.

I have never cared what a person uses as long as it is still the shooter who has to make it move.

So you can cross me off your list of equipment whiners and stack the bet.

Bring your golf bag full of clubs and a stopwatch.

 

[Jaden]

i agree with you donny

i agree with you donny3318]I think it takes years. If it doesn't then why can't anyone kick like the pinoys? Videos? Lol if those are so good then the guys I give the last 6 to should be able to watch a couple videos and start kicking like Efren. haha yeah right! Efren will shorten up a kick using just the right amount of draw on new cloth, old cloth or whatever the conditions are. The guys who make these videos, can they kick like the pinoys? lol.

Or how about that stupid super short jump cue. I remember back around 2000 - 2001 I use to give this guy the 678 playing 9 ball (I probably played the 6 or 7 under how I do know) and I would watch this guy jump over a ball that was like 2 inches in front of the cue ball. There was no skill in that! It is what you call a joke!

And yes I do use jump cues and I will get the best one out there. I only use them because everybody else does. I don't want to be at a disadvantage. Gambling match no jump cues unless it's a heist of course.[/QUOTE]

Yeah on the whole , I agree with you Donny. I think that to jump with the skill and accuracy of someone like shawn takes tons of skill and knowledge as well.

It is much easier for unskilled players to get out of tough situations with a jump cue.

Although I may be a little biased because I kick far better than most players..

Jaden