sonnymanila
Registered
ouch, kinda sad to see the revenue outside of players registration is only $200 
Swanee payouts
- Thread starter Keith Jawahir
- Start date
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
Clarify
Please consider the fact that Mark has been in the hospital and has not been directly involved in this event. He can't help himself because he loves to debate but he doesn't have all of the information and he is probably highly medicated. I can assure you that he was not implying that expenses come out of added money. I believe he was trying to make the point that CSI has many expenses associated with running this event that nobody on this thread seems to acknowledge. I have listed them in post #38.
Please consider the fact that Mark has been in the hospital and has not been directly involved in this event. He can't help himself because he loves to debate but he doesn't have all of the information and he is probably highly medicated. I can assure you that he was not implying that expenses come out of added money. I believe he was trying to make the point that CSI has many expenses associated with running this event that nobody on this thread seems to acknowledge. I have listed them in post #38.
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
ouch, kinda sad to see the revenue outside of players registration is only $200
EXACTLY! This is a weekend tournament...not the World Pool Masters.
$25 per entry was for green fees and registration at a 164 players that would equal $4100, late fees appear to be $465 for a total of $4565. There was a promise to put in a “guaranteed” $4000 as added money. That promise was not kept as it would seem that only $3,090 was put in. We will assume that the gate would go to the room owner. I have no idea where any sponsor money or revenue from the PPV stream would go.
I would note that it was not mentioned anywhere on the poster that the added, “guaranteed” $4,000 would be less the cost of the staff that travelled to the event plus any nut the room owner failed to cover.
Simply put, it would seem that there was a shortfall of $910 being put in as added money as promised. There can be no justification for this as it was clearly indicated that the $4,000 was guaranteed. This cannot be justified by making reference to the fact that BB pays out late. It would seem that at least BB eventually pays all that he commits to in the end.
The numbers may not be exact but even if you use CSI’s numbers the principle would seem to be the same. The full $4,000 promised to be added was not.
I would note that it was not mentioned anywhere on the poster that the added, “guaranteed” $4,000 would be less the cost of the staff that travelled to the event plus any nut the room owner failed to cover.
Simply put, it would seem that there was a shortfall of $910 being put in as added money as promised. There can be no justification for this as it was clearly indicated that the $4,000 was guaranteed. This cannot be justified by making reference to the fact that BB pays out late. It would seem that at least BB eventually pays all that he commits to in the end.
The numbers may not be exact but even if you use CSI’s numbers the principle would seem to be the same. The full $4,000 promised to be added was not.
Thanks for posting this detailed accounting Ozzy.
I know I do not care for the general way the "Money Added" term is used in the pool world, but in this case an apology may be in order.
I need to think this through a bit more...
I know I do not care for the general way the "Money Added" term is used in the pool world, but in this case an apology may be in order.
I need to think this through a bit more...
Where did you see only a $25 total fee? On the flyer? Ozzy's number shows $30 of the $90. Plus late fees aren't paid out.
Shouldn't have said 'ADDED GUARANTEED'
I just want to clarify my original response to this thread.
I am merely pointing out that there isn't a clear picture of the Green Fee/Registration Fee. Mark Griffin can say that everyone knows that they charge a $25 green fee, but the fact is that everyone doesn't know that. Also, things change every year, and if you're going to put '$90 Entry Fee (Includes Registration and Green Fee) on a poster and not indicate clearly what that amount is, then you've entered a grey area.
This is precisely why there are people wondering what happened to the money.
The purpose of my response to determine exactly what percentage of the entry constitutes, registration and green fee, after the fact. Now, you can sit there and tell me what your expenses were and who made this and made that, but the fact remains that over 30% of the money paid into this tournament was redirected away from the players, if you include a $4,000 added purse.
It's quite clear to me that the main error of judgement of this event was that the organizers assumed that the field would fill up, because if it did, there would have been a lot more to go around, making it possible for the expenses to get paid without hurting the prize fund the way it did. By saying $4,000 added 'Guaranteed' their green fee and registration fee now become a variable figure which is determined by the number of entrants. This is mainly because their expenses don't change.
An example:
Let's say that the number arrived earlier of $5,385 was used as green fee and registration, which paid all expenses.
Hypothetical scenario that the field was filled:
192 x $90 = $17,280 + $4,000 Added = $21,280
Total Money - $21,280
Total Expenses - $5,385
Balance = $15,895 - (Represents total Payouts)
$5,385 divided by 192 players = $28.04 - your new Green Fee/Registration Fee
Your green fee has now decreased by almost $4 per player and your prize fund has grown from $13,840 to $15,895, leaving a difference of $2,055.
$2,055 actually provides and additional value of $10.70 per player if the field is filled, which means that your players now have the benefit of saving almost $15 each on the green fee and registration fee by filling the field.
To put it simply - If the Swanee doesn't fill the field - The players pay more.
I'm not here to declare that there's a swindle going on - But I personally believe that this year, the accounting problem is made apparent because of less tournament money and the 'Guaranteed' promise of $4,000. What I don't appreciate is, people telling me that that's the way it's been for years and that we are just crazy nits who like to complain about everything. To me this represents a lack of respect to the participants of this event.
You made a mistake and your expenses are high. Just f***ing admit it so that we can all move on...
I just want to clarify my original response to this thread.
I am merely pointing out that there isn't a clear picture of the Green Fee/Registration Fee. Mark Griffin can say that everyone knows that they charge a $25 green fee, but the fact is that everyone doesn't know that. Also, things change every year, and if you're going to put '$90 Entry Fee (Includes Registration and Green Fee) on a poster and not indicate clearly what that amount is, then you've entered a grey area.
This is precisely why there are people wondering what happened to the money.
The purpose of my response to determine exactly what percentage of the entry constitutes, registration and green fee, after the fact. Now, you can sit there and tell me what your expenses were and who made this and made that, but the fact remains that over 30% of the money paid into this tournament was redirected away from the players, if you include a $4,000 added purse.
It's quite clear to me that the main error of judgement of this event was that the organizers assumed that the field would fill up, because if it did, there would have been a lot more to go around, making it possible for the expenses to get paid without hurting the prize fund the way it did. By saying $4,000 added 'Guaranteed' their green fee and registration fee now become a variable figure which is determined by the number of entrants. This is mainly because their expenses don't change.
An example:
Let's say that the number arrived earlier of $5,385 was used as green fee and registration, which paid all expenses.
Hypothetical scenario that the field was filled:
192 x $90 = $17,280 + $4,000 Added = $21,280
Total Money - $21,280
Total Expenses - $5,385
Balance = $15,895 - (Represents total Payouts)
$5,385 divided by 192 players = $28.04 - your new Green Fee/Registration Fee
Your green fee has now decreased by almost $4 per player and your prize fund has grown from $13,840 to $15,895, leaving a difference of $2,055.
$2,055 actually provides and additional value of $10.70 per player if the field is filled, which means that your players now have the benefit of saving almost $15 each on the green fee and registration fee by filling the field.
To put it simply - If the Swanee doesn't fill the field - The players pay more.
I'm not here to declare that there's a swindle going on - But I personally believe that this year, the accounting problem is made apparent because of less tournament money and the 'Guaranteed' promise of $4,000. What I don't appreciate is, people telling me that that's the way it's been for years and that we are just crazy nits who like to complain about everything. To me this represents a lack of respect to the participants of this event.
You made a mistake and your expenses are high. Just f***ing admit it so that we can all move on...
Thanks for the clarification. From what you outline the full $4,000 was added. That was the only issue (please note that you must have been putting this post in at the same time I was writing my previous post). I did not take issue with anything other than it seemed that the added money was reduced and that was being justified by expenses for employees to attend and the fact that BB pays late. You have shown that this is not so. Again, thanks for the clarification.
Why get involved if its just a weekend tournament?
164 players X $90= $14,760 (more money to the players and you dont lose money) (as if you really lost money with sponsors and ppv streams included)
The above total is without any sponsors adding money also. The house is more than capable of running the tournament imo and they still profit nicely.
See post #4
As I mentioned the numbers may not be correct but I was indicating that the principle should be if added money was guaranteed it should be fully provided.
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
Your numbers make zero sense and you have no idea what you're talking about. See post #38.
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
You are very welcome. Thank you.
sonnymanila
Registered
i think organizers should be more clear on the expected payouts... players are not business people, they are not familiar with the expenses and business aspect of the tournament. what's clear to them is the prize.
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
No apology necessary. Just be careful about forming an opinion based on a one-sided perspective from those that have an ax to grind (i.e. a streamer who got cut out this year and a few players that don't consider promoter expenses). Get both sides and then decide. Thanks.
If you'll excuse me, my response to this thread has nothing to do with me not getting the live stream contract. Normally, I would take offense to your comment, but I'll give you a pass because you're just a newbie to the CSI family. It doesn't matter that I don't agree that you did it as a Pay Per View event. It doesn't matter that I feel that I could have done a better job. It doesn't matter that I think you could have easily filled this field by promoting it a little better. Frankly, I've gone out of my way to promote and share CSI and TAR in the last 4 years just to promote and share pool to the world, and I have never expected anything for it. The only notifications I made on Facebook pertinent to the Swanee this year were because of repeated inquiries to me and my staff as to how and why I'm not streaming it. I totally acknowledge your need to stream this event as an 'in-house' deal. From a marketing and branding perspective, it only makes sense that you do.
I'm not here to bash anyone, but I feel that it is my right to defend the player's perspective when they have unanswered questions as to where the money went and how much of it actually constituted a green fee and registration fee.
See post #47 - which would have read a little differently if I didn't see post #38.
Yeah that's me - The jealous streamer. ROFL
Based on total purse of $13,840, and $2,800 for first, you guys only paid out 20% for winning the event. WHAT?! Am I old school for believing that 1st place is GENERALLY paid between 45-50% of total purse?
CSI - Ozzy
Banned
I suppose different tournaments do it differently. Personally, I'm not sure I have ever seen 45%-50% of the total purse for 1st place...that's huge. If that were the case, 1st place in the 2014 US Open 9-Ball would have been about $73,000 and 1st place at Turning Stone would have been $20,000. They were actually $30,000 and $8,000 respectively.
Also, keep in mind that the Swanee pays approx. 1/3 of the field rather than the normal 1/4. In most formats, this event would have paid the top 32. In keeping with past tradition, we paid the top 48 and would have paid the top 64 if it had filled.
Well, is it true that 1) you streamed this event in the past, 2) you didn't this year, 3) they used essentially the same payout system in the past, and 4) you didn't make posts criticizing them back then? Because you're accusing them of corruption now, and it would have been nice to know the above 4 points, if they're true, to put your accusations in some context.