System .v.s. Experience

AKA: HAMB...

Can we please avoid the "bet big money" bullshit for sake of this thread.
It's just the way I talk to express my confidence in my position. That said, out of all of the participants in this thread I believe I am the only one as far as I know who regularly bets big money playing pool.

I doubt highly that I will stop expressing myself this way and when I say that I will bet big it's not bs. I think through what I propose and while the outcome might not be exactly what I think I am fairly sure it will be pretty close.
 
AKA: HAMB...

Can we please avoid the "bet big money" bullshit for sake of this thread.
No, with a system I can hit far less balls and get to a higher level faster than someone without a system.

HAMB is DUMB. Trying to learn by throwing balls out is the stupidest way to go about it. Millions of players have wasted hundreds of millions of hours trying to get better because someone told them just to "hit a million balls". That phrase is just as stupid as the 10,000 hour fallacy. Someone hitting a million balls trying to get better through brute force repetition will get robbed if they play someone who has hit a half-million balls after mastering the systems and principles that work.

Learning the right principles and methods and mastering them so as to have a really great collection of tools at your disposal is the much better way.

This should be obvious to everyone.

If I went on a professional painter's forum and said all it takes to become a great painter is to paint a million walls I am sure I would get laughed out of the forum.

I almost never just throw balls out now when I practice. I have an intention and am trying to learn something new or sharpen the saw to be able to apply the tools I have more consistently and precisely.
 
Such an aiming system would have to be able to show you the shot line with no experience in shooting balls. Poolology is the only system I know of that does that (maybe Joe Tucker, too?).

Tucker's method is equal opposite, geometrically correct and easy to figure on some shots and harder on others.

An aiming system doesn't have to produce the right shot line on paper. It has to produce the right shot line on the pool table. If it does that then the shooter's experience is that he has a method to use for aligning to the shot precisely.

Again, if you TEST a player and that player gets on the right shot line over and over and over and over.....then the method of aim they are using works.

OK, so your hunch is better informed than my years of experience with my own stroke? If so then I'll tip my hat to you. But, I'll give you an example of what I mean. Set up a shot with hole reinforcers. I could hit it soft and pocket the ball 100%. Now increase speed until I start missing. Did my aim change? No. Of course what happened is my stroke mechanics started to change and cause the cue to go out of alignment.

And your response is to change your aim. Meaning that your aim was WRONG for the speed you wanted to use. Maybe you were aimed wrong on the soft shots as well but margin of error worked in your favor for that shot.

I do agree that for some shots the speed of the contact can change the trajectory. But for every shot there is a baseline center ball aim that is correct. Having a system to find that makes it easier to then adjust to the "little thinner, little fuller" aim to achieve the compensation one thinks they need.

You're right though, I shouldn't doubt what you have experienced on your table yourself. Now we can both agree that our anecdotal reporting of what we are experiencing on the table has weight. When you say you can't figure CTE out I believe you. When I say I use it successfully then I expect you to believe me.

In the example of the thin hits I was pocketing the ball with the thin aim but when I corrected known stroke issues that alignment no longer worked. It was over cutting the ball.

Great. Glad you worked it out.
 
It's just the way I talk to express my confidence in my position. That said, out of all of the participants in this thread I believe I am the only one as far as I know who regularly bets big money playing pool.
"Believe" is the key word there. You know me from a hole in the ground. So lets just leave my willingness to "bet big" at that,
I doubt highly that I will stop expressing myself this way and when I say that I will bet big it's not bs. I think through what I propose and while the outcome might not be exactly what I think I am fairly sure it will be pretty close.
My disdain for the "bs" (as I choose to call it) is not rooted in my disbelief of your willingness to back up the bet. Just the notion that some big bet has to happen to validate one's beliefs. I'm willing to bet a coffee that my fundamentals and HAMB experience will destroy you on the table. Not enough of a bet...? ..oh well, I have nothing to prove or axe to grind.
 
Someone hitting a million balls trying to get better through brute force repetition will get robbed if they play someone who has hit a half-million balls after mastering the systems and principles that work.
Sound like we have a game then. I like my coffee black. ;)
 
I know that one all too well...lol

Most of us do! For a lot of players it's backcuts from middle table. If you can find a good system that improves that shot, then use it for that shot. I am of the belief that you can use a system for such shots and eventually you'll just recognize the shot and know how to hit it. But the system helped you get to that point. It's a combination of system and experience.
 
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Share a little story.......many years, I injured my right thumb requiring a cast that kept me from moving it.

Didnt think much about it until I had to wipe my ass with my left hand for the first time ever in my life. I was in my 50’s.

It was so cumbersome and uncoordinated, so foreign. I had no muscle memory of wiping with my left hand as I did with my right.

If you do not understand the value of quality table time over a long period of time......you are a fool.

This is one of the best posts I've read that deals with how the mind works when it comes to developed skills and habits. And it made me laugh! 😂
 
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So I've been lurking around the aiming forum for a short while now. Most of the time just skimming comments, because generally speaking I don't subscribe to any 'system'. That said, I do find it mildly interesting to see how people opt to approach the game. More often than not, after reading a couple of pages I usually find myself wondering how I managed to become a decent player considering 'how wrong' I've always done it....lol. I also then start to wonder if the posters of these systems actually have any real success on the table.

Now I'm not throwing down a gauntlet, or have any intention of betting thousands. What I am curious about is, is what members would prefer to walk into a match armed with. A system or experience...?

Now I realize that generally the correct application of a system requires 'experience' with using it. ...so it's not like you're hitting the table with zero time under your belt. However, how long does it take to become decent at a system...?..., a year..? I'd say if it takes longer than that, then it's not much of a system...lol

So it's big match day. Would you rather be the guy who's been playing for a couple of years using a system (of your choice), or the guy with nothing but HAMB under his belt. The length of time the HAMB player has been playing the game is merely the time it takes to reach the HAMB threshold in the literal sense.

After rereading the above, I figured that even though this is the 'aiming' forum, I should add that I'm only considering the "aiming" aspect of the game here. Obviously there are aspects to the game wherein an aiming system isn't going to provide you a leg up on flat out experience at the table.

I also wanted to simplify this with a poll, but couldn't find an option to do so.
First of all, under big pressure you need experience even to make easy balls, but it also depends a bit on the player.

What an aiming system can do for you is to give you a consistent pre-shot routine. This is a lot more valuable than people give it credit for. It tends to give you a consistent rhytm, which can prevent many problems, like rushing or taking yourself out of the game by playing too slow.

If the system also helps you line up your body consistently, that's a big plus, too.

When the big pressure match comes, if I'm not sure of the players speeds other than a cursory glance, I'd bet on the player with solid fundamentals and a consistent pre-shot routine. How he aims is not even a consideration, unless it's tied to the psr in some way. For instance, if he's moving around a lot when down over the ball in order to aim the shot, that's bad. If he has big movements of the cue to aim, that can also be bad. BUT, and there is a big but here. Some players have overly elaborate psrs that take forever. I've noticed that these players tend to burn themselves out in a long match. In a race to 150 straight pool, someone taking 40seconds plus on nearly every shot is going to exhaust himself, many times. That is also true for overly elaborate aiming systems. They just eat up energy and concentration, which are limited resources. I don't think you can perform well over time if you are consciously aiming every shot. The idea is to consistently set up close and let the subconscious work out the details.
 
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That’s a pretty good summary of how all aiming, whether consciously systematic or not, probably works. Systems are the stories we tell ourselves about it.

pj
chgo
Keep in mind I'm not saying that aiming systems CANNOT work by consciously following steps, just that it's preferable to play subconsciously.
 
If you do the drills the pros do and get good at it , you'd forget about any system.
Do Filler, Gorst and Aranas care about systems ?
They are drill-maniacs .
 
I love when people think they know what goes on in the subconscious.

Sub meaning below consciousness, meaning unaware of whats going on.
 
So an aiming system that lands the player on the correct shot line isn't giving the right fractional overlap?

Will they "eventually" catch up? Are you sure? What IF both players play exactly 1 million shots in exactly five years. Will the non-system user be all caught up? Why would you think that?
If we use your stipulation that they both have essentially perfect strokes then I'd say after a few weeks the non system player will have aiming down pat. OK, let's say 2 months instead to be generous.
I mean if you want to do a numbers simulation then say that there are 1000 critical shots that every player must know. A hamb player might need to shoot each of those shots 200 times to REALLY have them burned into their memory. So that's 200,000 shots out of that million spent learning those shots.

A CTE user by contrast wouldn't have to do brute force repetition and could learn each of those shots in say 10 attempts max which means a 190% reduction in time spent learning the critical shots.
lol. Sure. That's the problem. You believe CTE does that while many of us do not.
If every shot attempt took 2 minutes to complete then that's 20,000 minutes versus 400,000 minutes.

What could the CTE user do with those extra 380,0000 minutes to improve their skills?

Well, let's continue and say that there are 50 patterns that every good player must know. Each pattern takes 50 reps to master and each rep takes 10 minutes to set up and complete. So that's 25,000 minutes to learn those patterns.

Let's say that good players have to master combinations and caroms and it takes 100,000 minutes to do that. Less time if you have a system.

In fact you and I can do this on a live stream video. We can do "hard shots" and see which of us learns how to make those shots at a higher percentage faster. It is my opinion that on some of those shots you will likely never catch up to my level of consistency with them because you will primarily be guessing whereas I will be using a tool to precisely find the correct shot line. I might miss a couple because I chose the wrong visual or sweep but then once I have it I have it forever.
 
The idea is to consistently set up close and let the subconscious work out the details.
Yes, exactly...

This is why I hang my hat on my HAMB approach. Once again though, I think we are getting caught up on the notion that HAMB is completely unstructured. Speaking for myself as an example, When I choose to employ it, I have a very methodical PSR that in the end mechanically brings me to within 95% of where I need to be. (That 95% is just a number that allows wiggle room when down on the shot). I'm also fully convinced that all players do indeed make micro adjustments when down on the shot and feathering their cue. The argument from other players that these micro adjustments not being performed by them on everything other than the most basic pots, is comical to me. Doing it on the subconciously level is the goal, so being naive in this regard isn't a bad thing. However there's power in fully grasping what's phyiscally going on when we aim.

Still speaking for only myself. When I'm in "gear" or in the "zone". I tend not rigidly follow my PSR, and those micro adjustments 'just happen'. When things are going bad, I'll roll back to my PSR and place conscious effort into those micro adjustments. This is as close as I get to something resembling a system. All of this is from the result of HAMB experience.

My next question is what happens to system users if and when they reach the 'zone'...? Do they still follow the preordained method subconsciously...?..., or do what I do, and blur through the PSR (system) and simply address the CB out of habit and pull the trigger..?
 
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If you do the drills the pros do and get good at it , you'd forget about any system.
Do Filler, Gorst and Aranas care about systems ?
They are drill-maniacs .

Yes, but drills of that sort are so time consuming that many players simply don't have that kind of time to invest, or they just don't want to work that hard. So they look for systems that might help speed up their skill development when it comes to pocketing balls or playing position or kicking or whatever. The alternative is to solely rely on experience. And, unless you have no job and pool is your only interest, your experience is not likely to be all that rewarding.

It all boils down to training the mind through deliberate practice and repetition. A good system can help with that training. And "good" is a matter of personal preference and personal experience. In other words, a system I find useful or helpful could very well be useless crap to someone else. And that's fine.

When you're trying to improve or learn any skill, you have to navigate through a sea of learning options to find what works best for you, because YOU are the sole captain of your ship.
 
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I don't care. The proof is ON THE TABLE. I don't care what you do or don't believe. I play pool for money and for my money CTE gets me the right shot line consistently.

Of course you want to argue about it. The point for me is that if someone tells me to do something, like Brian telling me to figure this and subtract that and the resulting fractional overlap is the shot line and I do it and I get on the shot line consistently then I don't CARE about the inscribed angle therom. Why not?

BECAUSE it doesn't matter.

If you tell me to imagine a phantom ball and I am able to get on the shot line accurately and consistently then I don't need to care if there is anything better or if there is an equation that covers it.

The point, FOR THIS DISCUSSION, is that a system user WILL, IN FACT, learn shots faster than a non-system user. Assuming that the system works by virtue of the shooter getting on the CORRECT shot line faster.

You want to talk about hamb, and muscle memory and teaching yourself to remember to "aim a little fuller" on this or that shot, which is ALL FEEL, and then tell me that CTE isn't accurate because you simply don't believe that it is while then trying to use poology as your example of a system that you believe is accurate and thus would give a user an advantage for a while until the feel player catches up. I don't get how you can't see that every method that produces consistently correct shot lines must be valid regardless of whether you believe in it or not.

Whether the inscribed angle theorem gets you close enough to the fraction that allows your brain to make whatever microadjustment might be needed or whether it's dead nuts perfect the point is that it's a tool that works and by virtue of it working it means that the user has a HUGE advantage over the feel player at all levels of competition. Because if you think of the number of shots taken in a tournament contrasted with the number of made shots and the number of missed shots and go from the premise that some percentage of the misses will be because of faulty aim and some will be stroke errors and some will be a mix of both, then it should be clear that a player with a straight stroke and a valid aiming system is LIKELY to have a lower percentage of shots missed due to faulty aiming. And the inverse to that is a higher percentage of shots made due to accurate aiming.

I told you that the proof is on the table. It's super easy to test.

set up a shot and use a laser line to mark the ghost ball center shot line to a gb template. Then remove the template and turn the laser off. Have the shooter put their cue down on the line they think is the shot line. If I say I use CTE and Brian uses Poolology and you use feel then it's highly likely that Brian and I will get on the right shot line far more consistently than you will.

And if so then that means we are likely to also then make more shots than you, win more than you, form better memories of successful shots faster than you, get into the zone faster than you, be in the right headspace to learn through observation more often than you....all because we aim better than you.

As the saying goes, you are entitled to your own beliefs but not to your own facts. The fact is that CTE produces the correct shot line just as well as poolology does by the virtue of the FACT that it produces the correct shot line every time and poolology can't possibly be better than that. That you choose not to believe that is not in any way material to the fact that a CTE user is getting on the shot line accurately and has every advantage that a system user has over a non-system user.

Experience (table time) is good. Experience using the right tools with the same table time is better.
I know you don't care why it works. If you did then you would not be dismissing all the data and logic that is contrary to your belief in CTE. Please go to mohrt's thread and watch my laser video. What am I doing wrong?

I can't comment on what you are saying above because you are making the unfounded assumption that CTE puts you on the shot line without any experience input from the player.
 
It's just the way I talk to express my confidence in my position. That said, out of all of the participants in this thread I believe I am the only one as far as I know who regularly bets big money playing pool.

I doubt highly that I will stop expressing myself this way and when I say that I will bet big it's not bs. I think through what I propose and while the outcome might not be exactly what I think I am fairly sure it will be pretty close.
That's why I don't respond to your big bet propositions. That has nothing to do with proving out CTE or not. If one player out shoots the other player it simply means he is a better player. That has nothing to do with how an aiming system works. In fact, if you wanted to do a shooting test the idea would be to eliminate as many unrelated variables as possible. For example, the same table should be used. Betting introduces the variable of who is a better gambler, having nothing to do with the experiment. You'd need a large number of CTE players and a large number of non CTE players involved. In the end, it might tell you the CTE players play better but it won't tell you exactly why CTE allows that.
 
what i think would be educational/informative/insightful
would be to ask the pros who have done the HAMB
but now use cte
discuss why and how it is different from what they used to do (which they obviously did very well since they are pros)
 
what i think would be educational/informative/insightful
would be to ask the pros who have done the HAMB
but now use cte
discuss why and how it is different from what they used to do (which they obviously did very well since they are pros)
Good point but you don't even have to ask them. Just follow the money.
 
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