T-rail bolt system conversion per Mr. Long

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
couldn't somebody, in theory, add a couple more rail bolts per rail, screwed into the slate from the side just as the originals are?

although i guess it would make me nervous to swiss cheese the slate any more than it is already...

either way, i personally would have a hard time with the ethics of altering an antique to that extent. perhaps it would be better to have a duplicate set of rails made, so you can alter those and not the originals.

Yes, extra rail bolts could be installed if one wanted to go through the all the extra work to do so. And yes, Mark is right, there is a way to add the extra bolts from the bottom side of the slate up into the bottom of the rails, but not a chance in hell someone would want to do it that way just to add more rail bolts:D

Glen
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting discussion

.... Isn't this where Stan from Southpark says "I think we've learned something here today...."
 

matteroner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have requested that the person who claims to have installed up-bolts comment on this thread ...so we will see.
 

gsm1sw

Banger by birth
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Artur Ball does not frequent this forum. He isn't much into computers. But I did call him this morning and he verified that he did indeed make it so that the rails bolt from the bottom plus the original side bolts. He also did the same to an Arcade.

He isn't inclined to talk about how he did the entire job but he did say he cut the slate so there was 1 1/2 " overlap from the frame on each side. He also did some work to the table so that there was some wood to work with. The project took about 8 months to complete.

Art does some great restoration work. I know Ken Hash has used him for rail work (restoring not calibrating).
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Artur Ball does not frequent this forum. He isn't much into computers. But I did call him this morning and he verified that he did indeed make it so that the rails bolt from the bottom plus the original side bolts. He also did the same to an Arcade.

He isn't inclined to talk about how he did the entire job but he did say he cut the slate so there was 1 1/2 " overlap from the frame on each side. He also did some work to the table so that there was some wood to work with. The project took about 8 months to complete.

Art does some great restoration work. I know Ken Hash has used him for rail work (restoring not calibrating).

A picture is worth a 1,000 words;)
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I'll see if I can talk him into producing a drawing of what he did other than that it would be up to Carl to get some pictures of the rails.

If you look at the drawings in post 16 from Mr. Bond you'll see where the rail liner butts up flush to the side of the slate, now extend the slate 1 1/2" out further and the slate would go right through the rail liner, meaning there's no rail to bolt to the side of the slate, because the whole rail would actually be sitting on top of the slate...meaning the rail would have to be cut off where it would normaly bolt to the side of the slate to allow room for the wider slate to fit. What would the side mount rail bolts be going through to bolt the rail to the slate from the side?

Glen
 

gsm1sw

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It would be easier for me to get more information if I was back in Plano, Tx instead of Ca. but for now y'all will have to take Art and Carlos word for it.
 

Dartman

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It would be easier for me to get more information if I was back in Plano, Tx instead of Ca. ...

I'd speculate that nobody here would be interested in experimenting with cutting down slate and modifying T rails just to incorporate vertical rail bolts. I personally see no advantage to this.
 

gsm1sw

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I'd speculate that nobody here would be interested in experimenting with cutting down slate and modifying T rails just to incorporate vertical rail bolts. I personally see no advantage to this.

Probably not, I was just letting others know that it has been done successfully. I might not know the details but that does not change the fact that it is possible.

The advantage is that the rail is held down to the table better after this mod but for most I do not think the cost would justify it.


On the Kling, I believe the original project was to convert from a 10' snooker table to a 9' pool table. The rail bolts were just an addition to make it better.
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is what I had visualized from what Long said...

I could not ask Mr. Long specifics because I had no diagram with me to refer questions about. I went to Long's in person with a diagram but the new owner was not there and has not called me to follow up. When Long told me about doing a bolt conversion, it sounded like he was going to do what I have done with this edited diagram. To me it sounded like unsound work and that's why I asked if the original rail bolts could just be left in. You can all see why this aroused my curiosity and made me doubt that this would improve the table's play but it kept eating at me what the actual conversion did.....
 

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CarlMPearson

Older'n a Roman Pool Ball
Kling with Up-Bolts

My table. Up-Bolts. It was done, I saw it, it works.

New slate. Plays great. Looks great.

Was a 10' snooker. Separated and cut the rails, cut everything. Lots of engineering mods.

I had an Arcade and didn't modify it for up-bolts and it always played with a thump here and there, so when I got the Kling train-wreck snooker, I wanted up-bolts and I got up-bolts! No thumps, just a solid rail everywhere.

http://www.carlopool.com/Kling.htm
http://www.carlopool.com/KlingProject.htm

Any of you "Can't be done" types can eat your words. Come to Dallas and spot me two balls and I'll let you touch it, crawl around on you back under it and talk to yourself.

Carlo
Dallas
;^))
 

Cuephoric

1hole anyone?
Silver Member
Ive heard of a couple of guys doing it, but without an oversized slate, don't see how it could be accomplished effectively without screwing with the frame- not something anyone I know would be interested in. I will be in the Plano area tomorrow, and will go by Arthur Balls shop and see what he did. And what pics he has to put up for future reference. There's a way to do anything, it's just a matter of cost and willingness to find out. Most of us aren't going to cut into an antique to test a theory
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
My table. Up-Bolts. It was done, I saw it, it works.

New slate. Plays great. Looks great.

Was a 10' snooker. Separated and cut the rails, cut everything. Lots of engineering mods.

I had an Arcade and didn't modify it for up-bolts and it always played with a thump here and there, so when I got the Kling train-wreck snooker, I wanted up-bolts and I got up-bolts! No thumps, just a solid rail everywhere.

http://www.carlopool.com/Kling.htm
http://www.carlopool.com/KlingProject.htm

Any of you "Can't be done" types can eat your words. Come to Dallas and spot me two balls and I'll let you touch it, crawl around on you back under it and talk to yourself.

Carlo
Dallas
;^))

Like the old saying goes, "seeing is believing"
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm within 3 miles of Long's, so I will keep askin'...

I will let you guys know what I find out from Long's and take photos if I can. Cuephoric Shane stretched my bed cloth, so I know for sure it will play great, but my rails didn't come with the table and they have to be reworked. Believe it or not, I found new-old-stock rail caps that came from a closed Brunswick factory... so I am waiting to get with Randy Burke in Indy and have those installed. Then if I am lucky, Shane will be the one to cover the rails...
 

hunger strike

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did anyone notice that I edited the diagram?

I didn't see any commentary. I have no idea if this would be a good idea, but this was my impression of what the old Mr. Long was describing, and he seemed like a nice old guy so I didn't want to sound argumentative... I just listened and nodded and doubted.
 

Dartman

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I didn't see any commentary. I have no idea if this would be a good idea, but this was my impression of what the old Mr. Long was describing, and he seemed like a nice old guy so I didn't want to sound argumentative... I just listened and nodded and doubted.

Fig 3 (as you depicted) allows room for a screw up thru the liner/slate into the subrails.
You could do the same in Fig 2 using a much longer screw up thru the frame/liner/slate into the subrail.
If the horizontal rail bolts and anchors are in good shape the rails should play as originally designed
without a need for extra screws. JMO
 

gsm1sw

Banger by birth
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If the horizontal rail bolts and anchors are in good shape the rails should play as originally designed without a need for extra screws. JMO

Just cause it will play as designed doesn't mean it will play as good as it can hence the use of vertical attachment points. From my point of view it appears that the horizontal bolts would act as a pivot point, every time a ball hits the rails it would cause the rail to rock ever so slightly.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Quick hijack but since Glen is awake in here I have 1 quick question... I have a 39 Brunswick Moderne I just purchased... I did a happy dance when I went to buy it when I saw the thru the slate bolting up into the rosewood rails.... I was told by what I think is a reliable source that the Moderne was the first to have the thru the slate bolt system.... You have any clue about that being true or just hot air????
 

Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
Just cause it will play as designed doesn't mean it will play as good as it can hence the use of vertical attachment points. From my point of view it appears that the horizontal bolts would act as a pivot point, every time a ball hits the rails it would cause the rail to rock ever so slightly.

From my point of view a 6 oz ball will have no affect on a roughly 8 lb rail in good shape attached to the table correctly and securely. For all the years Bwick and others cranked out T rail tables you would think if there was a problem with rails rocking then the mfg would have made some modification to the attachment method. I doubt they were thinking 100 years ahead tho and gave much thought to the amount of wear on the wood we typically see on the old tables so using vertical screws seems a good additional fix if rail attachment isn't sound using only the horizontal bolts.
 
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