I've always felt that T Rail tables have a better rebound, faster with a more solid feel. I maintain that I can shoot a bank on a table and tell if it is T Rail without looking all other things being equal, K 55 cushions same cloth etc. Is this my imagination or has anyone else tested this or noticed a difference? I think it maybe because most T Rail tables have more mass or the rails are more solidly connected to the slate? I play on a T Rail table and Diamond Smart tables. Comments Thoughts? Thanks Larry
T Rail vs Vertical bolt rails
- Thread starter larryt
- Start date
It's definitely not your imagination. IMHO the old timers had it right.
Every mechanic out there has had the experience of being able to remove half the rail bolts on a table with simply our fingers. With the way many modern tables are constructed rail bolts come loose because of vibration. This is especially true on tables that have rails with floating inserts.
My assumption is that the t-rail system was abandoned in favor of thinner (i.e. cheaper) slate, smaller (i.e. cheaper) hardware and less substantial (i.e. cheaper) blinds.
Every mechanic out there has had the experience of being able to remove half the rail bolts on a table with simply our fingers. With the way many modern tables are constructed rail bolts come loose because of vibration. This is especially true on tables that have rails with floating inserts.
My assumption is that the t-rail system was abandoned in favor of thinner (i.e. cheaper) slate, smaller (i.e. cheaper) hardware and less substantial (i.e. cheaper) blinds.
Yeah, I know what you guys mean, the 1965 Mustang was sure built better than todays Shelby Cobra GT500KR
I have found the exact opposite to be true. I find that rails bolted through the slate play better with less thud and a more accurate rebound. The old jumbo frame Brunswick's with 1.5 inch slate and 4 rail bolts per rail were very solid bankers. These are the exception not the rule. As a rule I've found the through the slate bolting method far superior and much more consistent. IMHO
Jay
I agree the T Rails play clunky. I personally feel through the slate connection is far superior also.
Yeah, I know what you guys mean, the 1965 Mustang was sure built better than todays Shelby Cobra GT500KR
Yup, and Murrey tables play better than Gold Crowns.
As a big fan of the antique table, I have to admit that they don't play the same as a current age commercial table. Course, if the question was on which I prefer I have to go with the T-Rails. There is a lot to go wrong with the design as the rails are not held down to the slate vertically. Ideally the slate bolts would be on a 45deg angle pulling the rails down and in. This way it would spread the vibration and loading on both axis instead of isolating it on one. Just my 2 cents.
I know there is one of you that is going to tell me how I am wrong.... However from the engineering side of table design it is just plain ridiculous that few companies use triangulation in the design for stress and vibration.
Rob
I know there is one of you that is going to tell me how I am wrong.... However from the engineering side of table design it is just plain ridiculous that few companies use triangulation in the design for stress and vibration.
Rob
T Rails
With T Rails the size of the playing surface is determined by the size of the slate no wiggle room. typically there is an 1/8" clearance around a bolt on a modern table. Right size slate exact playing surface. To explain why T Rails are more solid try pushing sideways on a fence post and see if it moves, then try pushing straight down on it and see if it moves. T Rail bolts rarely work lose because they don't flex as much as vertical bolts. My opinion, any of you engineer types care to comment.
With T Rails the size of the playing surface is determined by the size of the slate no wiggle room. typically there is an 1/8" clearance around a bolt on a modern table. Right size slate exact playing surface. To explain why T Rails are more solid try pushing sideways on a fence post and see if it moves, then try pushing straight down on it and see if it moves. T Rail bolts rarely work lose because they don't flex as much as vertical bolts. My opinion, any of you engineer types care to comment.
OTLB
Banned
Really it all depends on the washers
I agree! However, the locking action of the newer tables which transmits the vibration of the rail through the slate is better. That is why I would ideally say to have a rail bolt going down into the slate on a 45deg angle....albeit not a practical design it would maintain much of the attributes of both styles. As soon as you lose the positive mount between the inside of the T-rail to the flat edge of the slate all of your strength and therefor speed is gone. How many T-rails were you able to bend even when bolted tight? Still love the design though!
Rob
Let me try and explain it this way for you T-rail guys
A 2x6 bolted flat is going to be much stronger than a 2x4 mounted upright. It's all about the amount of wood behind the cushion which is what makes all the difference. When you think about it, both styles of rails are contacting almost the same amount of slate when bolted down, yet the sound effects are greater on a T-railed table when compared to a flat-down bolt designed rail. And, it also has a lot to do with just exactly how the flat-down rails are bolted as well, we're not talking Sears best here Thicker slates were also required for T-rails, which also translated to heavier slates, which translated to much heavier frames, all of which didn't mean better playing tables. And just for everyone's info, the playing surface on a T-railed table is dictated by the nose of the cushion to the finish of the rail, not just the slate
Glen
A 2x6 bolted flat is going to be much stronger than a 2x4 mounted upright. It's all about the amount of wood behind the cushion which is what makes all the difference. When you think about it, both styles of rails are contacting almost the same amount of slate when bolted down, yet the sound effects are greater on a T-railed table when compared to a flat-down bolt designed rail. And, it also has a lot to do with just exactly how the flat-down rails are bolted as well, we're not talking Sears best here Thicker slates were also required for T-rails, which also translated to heavier slates, which translated to much heavier frames, all of which didn't mean better playing tables. And just for everyone's info, the playing surface on a T-railed table is dictated by the nose of the cushion to the finish of the rail, not just the slateGlen
T Rails
I agree with Glen T Rail tables generally have heavier slate, heavier frames. More mass means less give by the table when the cushion is hit, therefore less energy is absorbed by the table. More mass, more solid equals better rebound. There is no substitute for mass. That being said modern tables like Diamonds, Brunswicks and a few others are well built and a good buy, if cost was not a consideration I prefer T Rails. Some of the custom high end tables are still built with T Rails.
I agree with Glen T Rail tables generally have heavier slate, heavier frames. More mass means less give by the table when the cushion is hit, therefore less energy is absorbed by the table. More mass, more solid equals better rebound. There is no substitute for mass. That being said modern tables like Diamonds, Brunswicks and a few others are well built and a good buy, if cost was not a consideration I prefer T Rails. Some of the custom high end tables are still built with T Rails.
Well, kind a, sort a...LOL I was more referring to the fact that todays tables are better built in the sense that they're more streamlined in the materials used. For example, Antique tables relied on a more solid outside external panel frame support to accommodate the weight of the slate, whereas Brunswick's GC5 relies on a more solid flat frame system for slate support. Both are more than qualified to do the job of supporting the slate, but the more modern GC5 frame support is way better in it's design than that of the antiques of the past. Bolting down a 6" wide rail flat to the playing surface of the slate is way stronger than bolting a 2x4 rail standing on edge to the side of the slate, at that angle it's only 1 1/2" thick vs 6" thick. The Diamond ProAm style of table is every bit as strong as the GC5 is, but it's of a different design as well, as it reverts back to the side panels for it's strength for slate support. But the rail system of the commercial tables today is much stronger, and MUCH easier to work on than the T-rail system of the past.
Glen
OTLB
Banned
Let me try and explain it this way for you T-rail guys
Glen
The playing surface on a T-rail table is determined by the size of the slate just like it is on any other table. What it measures doesn't matter. It could be 2 inches wide or 4 with the outer edge of the nose still being the same distance apart. Thicker slates are NOT required for T-rails and don't know why anyone would think that????..... The contact area of a flat mounted rail is almost the same as a T-rail. Anyone think popping off 4 rail bolts and 6 pockets is more time consuming then the same process on a GCV or DIAMOND PRO? best today versus best years ago, no contest IMO.
T-rails will have more issues if they are broken, the key with T-rails is how you put them on.
T-rails were changed for only one reason and if you don't know what it is I will tell you, its easy. Its all about money.
Many billliard tables use this design.
Also T-rails are a better design. One key factor that noone has mentioned. I know a couple of things about T-rails but not more than any living past or present.
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Just for a visual comparison to the jumbo frame see if you can post up a pic of a GC5 frame and a DP-Am frame.
Let me try and explain it this way for you T-rail guys
I assume that would that explain the reason for the steel plate behind the wood in English style snooker tables.
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John, you're always so full of shit and ready to argue at a moments notice...I swear! Look buddy, the slate dimensions on an antique T-railed 9ft is 54x104...how do you get the playing dimensions out of that? Secondly, if you cut the sub-rail liner off you'll find that the finish of the rails right up to the point of the back side of the feather strip is flush with the OUTSIDE dimensions of the slate....SO, in order to get a 50x100 playing surface your nose of cushions to the finish of the rails has to be 2" inches....which is WHAT determines the playing surface buddy! Now your little washer trick placing washers between the rail and slate where the bolts go through so you can line up the side pockets....yeah I caught your washer comment...is nothing more than HACK work because either YOU or the mechanic that worked on the table last DIDN'T know how to set the sub-rails up right in the first place...but that probably wouldn't have been you now would it John....do YOU do your own sub-rail work on T-railed tables? Or do you send them out to SOMEONE else so THEY can fix them?
As far as a T-railed table being taken apart faster than a Diamond 9ft ProAm....I'll give you a head start...and still take your money when the Diamond rails are set off the slate while you're still trying to take that table apart...unless you can take it apart in under 2 minutes!!!! I never said that T-rails couldn't be mounted on 1" slates buddy, but I did say that they were better on thicker slates.
Here's another problem with T-rails you've forgotten to mention....they're NOT interchangeable buddy....unless you can match them to the next set of slates....or change the rail bolt pattern in the T-rails!!!! I can take ANY set of Diamond ProAm rails and bolt them down on ANY Diamond ProAm and they'll fit perfect....so stick that in your pipe and smoke it
Glen
OTLB
Banned
You think that they made a dif set of holes for every model table they created? Antique rails are interchangeable.
You could take any set of rails fom one of Brunswicks factories in the old days and they would also have been able to have the same models rails be interchangeable also, so what.
I guess you are not famaliar with washers on T -rails, there are more than one type.
Its funny, behind your own words you have stated a good reason T-rails are better
FYI, I use Muellers to do some of my shop work as well as many other trained professions in my Pool business. Glen, even you worked for me.
You could take any set of rails fom one of Brunswicks factories in the old days and they would also have been able to have the same models rails be interchangeable also, so what.
I guess you are not famaliar with washers on T -rails, there are more than one type.
Its funny, behind your own words you have stated a good reason T-rails are better
FYI, I use Muellers to do some of my shop work as well as many other trained professions in my Pool business. Glen, even you worked for me.
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I wouldn't really call delivering pool tables to you..."working" for you John
Got some good stuff in that pipe you're smoking I see
