Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
FYI, I just improved the diagram showing how to take the measurements accurately. Here it is:
And here's the updated Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) document, which is convenient if you want a printed copy.
I hope that helps,
Dave
And here's the updated Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) document, which is convenient if you want a printed copy.
I hope that helps,
Dave
Dave,
I just re-measured my "typical Diamond Pro Cut" pocket using the latest guidance and using post-it notes to "sharpen" the rounded off cushion points and to extend the backs of the cushions to intersect with the pocket facings.
Doing so yielded a big difference in the Pocket Angle Factor from what I formerly measured.
Here's the latest measurements and factors:
TSF 9' 1.0
PSF 4.5" 1.0
PAF 1.06" 1.15 (I formerly measured the pocket throat dimension at 3 3/4". Using the updated method yielded 3 7/16".. BIG difference with new method)
PLF 1.75" 1.0
So, with the new measurements, my "typical Diamond Pro Cut" table has a TDF of 1.15.
Even if my pocket throat dimension is actually 3 1/2" (and not the 3 7/16" that I measured on one pocket), my table's TDF is 1.10.
I'll let you decide which one to use.
We need a couple more of us with the same table to weigh in with their measurements.
Perhaps I should go back and measure another pocket or two's throat dimension.
I just re-measured my "typical Diamond Pro Cut" pocket using the latest guidance and using post-it notes to "sharpen" the rounded off cushion points and to extend the backs of the cushions to intersect with the pocket facings.
Doing so yielded a big difference in the Pocket Angle Factor from what I formerly measured.
Here's the latest measurements and factors:
TSF 9' 1.0
PSF 4.5" 1.0
PAF 1.06" 1.15 (I formerly measured the pocket throat dimension at 3 3/4". Using the updated method yielded 3 7/16".. BIG difference with new method)
PLF 1.75" 1.0
So, with the new measurements, my "typical Diamond Pro Cut" table has a TDF of 1.15.
Even if my pocket throat dimension is actually 3 1/2" (and not the 3 7/16" that I measured on one pocket), my table's TDF is 1.10.
I'll let you decide which one to use.
We need a couple more of us with the same table to weigh in with their measurements.
Perhaps I should go back and measure another pocket or two's throat dimension.
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furryboffin
Registered
I like it! My table works out at 1.24! pretty tough. It's noticeable when trying to make long runs in 14-1. making 100 balls on my table feels like making 500 balls at the club!
Thanks for the update. For now, I've gone with the 3 1/2" throat (see below).
That would be helpful.
Let us know what you get on each pocket for both the mouth and throat measurements. I suspect they vary quite a bit on some tables. I've certainly seen tables where this is obvious.
Here's the latest:
Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):
name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33
example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.10 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.09
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/8":1.02 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.00
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.99
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 9/16":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.93
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.94 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.94
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.88
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86
example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82
Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")[/QUOTE]
Please report your measurements so I can add it to the list.
And since you can easily run 100 on such a tough table, you should post BU scores and videos on the BU thread to help set the bar even higher! :grin:
Thanks,
Dave
Too much math.
First off I am well past my prime playing days and at 66 years old and I play once a week.
Gold crown tables I can still run 2 or 3 racks of 10 or 9 ball here and there.
Diamonds -not so much
I play on both at Felt Billiards in Colorado. and compared to the Diamonds the Gold Crowns are slop buckets.
First off I am well past my prime playing days and at 66 years old and I play once a week.
Gold crown tables I can still run 2 or 3 racks of 10 or 9 ball here and there.
Diamonds -not so much
I play on both at Felt Billiards in Colorado. and compared to the Diamonds the Gold Crowns are slop buckets.
I've tried to keep it as simple as possible and still get meaningful information. Take three measurements with a ruler, look up four numbers, and multiply them. That's not so bad, is it? :sorry:
With a name like "measureman," it should be a piece of cake. :grin-square:
The numbers so far seem to agree with you (see below). A typical Diamond is at about 1.10 (10% harder than "standard") and a typical Gold Crown is at about 0.95 (5% easier than "standard").
If it's not too much trouble, the next time you're at Felt, could you carefully take the 3 measurements on each table and report them here. I'll do the math. We'd like to see how different Diamonds and Gold Crowns compare.
Thanks,
Dave
PS: Say hi to Samm for me.
Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):
name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33
example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.10 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.09
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/8":1.02 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.00
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.99
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 9/16":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.93
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.94 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.94
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.88
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86
example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82
Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")
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I measure floor coverings not tables :thumbup:
I did not read the whole thread-what 3 measurements do you need?
and you owe me water for this
I will be at Felt on Saturday.
I did not read the whole thread-what 3 measurements do you need?
and you owe me water for this
I will be at Felt on Saturday.
Dave I have the Diamond exactly as Cigardave described and its MUCH softer than the one I listed here, I played on it for years, still have it in Vegas
Ernesto told me he made the pockets on the BB table 1/16" smaller than mine, they were done around the same time,m same cushions. Oscar and Ernesto told me my table is harder than the BB table because of the shelf, I havent played on the BB table but they have and i cant argue with them. something here isnt accuirate. perhaps i measured the shelf wrong or something. i'm not trying to have the tighest table. I just think based on 3 tables I know of the numbers are off.
Sorry Dave - I dont have any high speed video evidence 
....but here's an idea anyway : for those wanting to take their inner geek to the next level :grin-square:
Theoretical Pocket Facing Factor
name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- PFF-- TDF
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 --14: .00-- 1.00 -- ("standard")
0 - 7 degrees + .02
7 - 11 degrees + .01
12 - 15 degrees + .00 "Standard"
16 - 20 degrees - .01
....but here's an idea anyway : for those wanting to take their inner geek to the next level :grin-square:
Theoretical Pocket Facing Factor
name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- PFF-- TDF
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 --14: .00-- 1.00 -- ("standard")
0 - 7 degrees + .02
7 - 11 degrees + .01
12 - 15 degrees + .00 "Standard"
16 - 20 degrees - .01
All I need is the corner pocket mouth, throat, and shelf according to the diagram below:
You got it ... the coldest water you ever tasted! :grin:and you owe me water for this
Sounds good. I'll expect your report, without the math, by Sunday morning. :thumbup:
Catch you later,
Dave
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Your table might be tougher for shots close to the rail that get spit out more easily by that deeper shelf, but the smaller BB pocket probably makes the average shot (over a wide range of shots) more difficult. It would be nice to get impressions from other people who have played on both, taking a wide range of shots into consideration.
Regards,
Dave
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Thank you for the suggestion; although, if the effect is only +/- 1-2%, I don't think it is worth the effort (and extra measurement requiring something other than a ruler). I would still like to hear a convincing explanation why a 10 degree vertical angle makes a ball react much differently than a 20 degree vertical angle, especially for slow shots. I can't imagine the effective nose contact height on the ball can vary very much.Sorry Dave - I dont have any high speed video evidence
....but here's an idea anyway : for those wanting to take their inner geek to the next level :grin-square:
Theoretical Pocket Facing Factor
name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- PFF-- TDF
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 --14: .00-- 1.00 -- ("standard")
0 - 7 degrees + .02
7 - 11 degrees + .01
12 - 15 degrees + .00 "Standard"
16 - 20 degrees - .01
Regards,
Dave
I'm sure he meant throat...not throw lol. Stupid spell check
Eric - Go back and re-measure your current table applying the post-it note approach and see if the numbers change. Mine did. The pocket throat dimension changed a lot.
When I did that on my Diamond, the pocket throat dimension went from 3.75" down to 3.5" (causing the difference between the pocket mouth and the pocket throat to increase from 0.75" to 1.0", which increased the PAF from 1.0 to 1.1... and that caused my table's TDF to increase to 1.10.
Go back and re-measure yours. Your TDF may actually be higher than the 1.09 you previously reported.
Forget the videos of 100-ball runs at home. I want to see those 500-ball runs at the local club.
Eric, Glen (RKC) has said in the past that he doesn't think the shelf depth is that much a part of what makes a pocket play tough. Biggest factor according to him is the pocket facing angles. He says that if the facing angles are cut correctly, the shelf won't stop them from dropping.
Pockets get progressively harder to keep balls down as the cut angle goes above 135º (parallel pocket facings). The Bonus Ball table has pockets cut at 138º, the infamous Fatboy rails IIRC are 140º, and the new Diamonds come with facing angles of 141º. Mine look like buckets, but they have facing angles of 144º. They play real tough in spite of being 5" across the mouth.
Thanks for the info.
Do you think the pocket angle factor (PAF) or pocket shelf factor (PLF) values should be adjusted in the different ranges, or do you and others think they are adequately capturing the important effects for the tables we've seen so far?
Regards,
Dave