Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
jondrums - 9':1.00, 11.9cm:0.95, 2.5cm:1.07, 4.2cm:1.00 - 1.02 (Diamond Professional)
Thank you for posting, and thank you for using the correct format (English or metric units are fine), making it easy for me to add it to the list, which I have done.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays in comparison to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the online mobile-friendly TDF calculator (created by "Isaac") or the TDF Excel spreadsheet calculator to get your results.

username - table size, pocket mouth size, mouth-throat difference, shelf depth - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified)
CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (10' Brunswick Anniversary modified)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Red Diamond Pro-Am, modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, FL)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.1, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.22 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
8cree - 9":1.00, 4.125":1.15, 0.813":1.05, 1.562":1.00 - 1.21 (Diamond Blue Label at The Birds Nest in Summerville, SC)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (modified Centennial)
Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (modified AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/8":0.97, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.15, 5/8":1.0, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.13 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (GC from Steinway Billiards)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 GC I)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Justaneng - 8':0.90 - 4":1.20, 7/8":1.05, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.12 (Olhausen)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 10.7 cm:1.10, 1.7 cm:1.02, 2.7 cm:0.98 - 1.10 (GC V tournament edition)
ShaneVanNothin - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1":0.97, 2":1.03 - 1.10 (Modified Brunswick)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
tjlmbklr - 8'+:0.95, 4":1.15, 141deg:1.02, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.09 (unknown, maybe homemade or a kit table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GC II, modified)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC)
JC - 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC III)
Banger - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.04 (modified GC III)
Jimmorrison - 7':0.85, 3 7/8":1.25, 7/16":0.99, 3/4":0.98 - 1.03 (modified Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Red Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets)
jondrums - 9':1.00, 11.9cm:0.95, 2.5cm:1.07, 4.2cm:1.00 - 1.02 (Diamond Professional)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1/8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
bignick31985 - 9':1.00, 4 3/8":1.05, 0.475":0.98, 1.5":0.98 - 1.01 (GC IV)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 11.4 cm:1.00, 1.7 cm:1.02, 3.3 cm:0.98 - 1.00 (GC V tournament edition)
coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 1":0.98 - 0.99 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
jviss - 9’:1.00, 4.98”:0.91, 0.76”:1.04, 1.625”:1.00 - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (7’ Diamond - Blue Label)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 
There's one important factor that isn't taken into account in this TDF calculator you have, and I know typically normal tables don't have this, but some weird made old tables do develop this thing which I call roundness of the ledge of pocket, this is very important, to me the rounder this ledge is, the harder and more difficult the table is, because essentially what happens is the table will hardly accept any shots especially those near the cushion.

I did experiment with this and to me my table which has a little rounded ledge (due to fatigue i think or misuses or whatever happened to this table for this to develop) is very much harder table than my friends which has smaller pockets, however my table will refuse shots that my friends table will accept.

Maybe you wont understand what I mean, but think of snooker pockets, do you see how rounded the edge of pockets left & right are and it is the reason why in snooker the balls which are closer to the rail will be regarded as safe or hard shots to make, this exactly what I'm talking about, now I know in billiards we don't have this roundness which is why the balls near the rail are actually easier to play, because in pool what we have is a pointy angle, like really pointy and thats why in pool the rail balls are easy, but as I said, some misused rails can have roundness to them and not the pointy type of edges, if your pocket is not pointy, then check how harder it is to pocket balls, thats all I'm saying.

Image will explain it better.

View attachment 577592View attachment 577593
I'm redoing all my rails and table soon and I'll take the measurements after it done if I can find a pro that is closer then 70mi away as it cost as much for him to show up as for the job. I'm located in kirkman Iowa do you know any mechanic in my area
 
That's easy to answer. Just take the measurements on all tables of interest and enter them into the online mobile-friendly TDF calculator. If you do, please also post the measurements and results here so I can add them to the list.

Thanks,
Dave
I'm redoing all my rails and table soon and I'll take the measurements after it done if I can find a pro that is closer then 70mi away as it cost as much for him to show up as for the job. I'm located in kirkman Iowa do you know any mechanic in my area
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm redoing all my rails and table soon and I'll take the measurements after it done if I can find a pro that is closer then 70mi away as it cost as much for him to show up as for the job. I'm located in kirkman Iowa do you know any mechanic in my area
I don't, but hopefully somebody in Iowa has some suggestions.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Excellent point. The TDF system applies only to tables with flat facings, like pool tables. It does not apply to tables with rounded facings like snooker or Chinese pool tables.

Regards,
Dave
I think another factor not considered in the TDF calculator is the age and wear of the cloth. Simonis cloth that has been on a table for 2-3 years is going to make the pockets play tougher than 6 month old Simonis on the same table.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think another factor not considered in the TDF calculator is the age and wear of the cloth. Simonis cloth that has been on a table for 2-3 years is going to make the pockets play tougher than 6 month old Simonis on the same table.

There are many factors not considered. Here are some quotes from the TDF resource page explaining why:

The TDF and effective-score numbers should not be interpreted too literally since there are so many other factors that contribute to how difficult a table actually plays (side pocket geometry, cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.).

When the TDF system was developed, side pocket measurements were excluded to keep the system as simple as possible (requiring as few measurements as possible) while still capturing the most important characteristics of a table. On most tables, it is the corner pocket toughness (and not the side pocket toughness) that dominates overall table difficulty level.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Here is my routine to get a table ready to ''read'' when I'm trying to get my answer
1st....Vacuum each section, and rail/cushion tops with bed vac tool.
2nd....do a walk around & use crevice tool to vac pockets, under cushion area and various fuzz not gotten.
3rd....soak your rag, clean, damp, no lint cotton rag rinsed out, but not too much fold cloth in half twice.
I wipe my 9' in 4 sections, each side. I turn my cloth new, for each section. I wipe in pocket wear area to rid of ball lines.
Once table is ''wet ragged'' I use another new section of the table/wipe cloth that is now holding ''allot'' less moisture, yet my cloth is clean.
I then do a final table walk around and wipe the top rails, the pocket interiors and again, use the same cloth, with a new fold area/clean. Takes about 20 min to set up and do one table.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here is my routine to get a table ready to ''read'' when I'm trying to get my answer

What is the question to which you are getting your answer?


1st....Vacuum each section, and rail/cushion tops with bed vac tool.
2nd....do a walk around & use crevice tool to vac pockets, under cushion area and various fuzz not gotten.
3rd....soak your rag, clean, damp, no lint cotton rag rinsed out, but not too much fold cloth in half twice.
I wipe my 9' in 4 sections, each side. I turn my cloth new, for each section. I wipe in pocket wear area to rid of ball lines.
Once table is ''wet ragged'' I use another new section of the table/wipe cloth that is now holding ''allot'' less moisture, yet my cloth is clean.
I then do a final table walk around and wipe the top rails, the pocket interiors and again, use the same cloth, with a new fold area/clean. Takes about 20 min to set up and do one table.

Thank you for sharing your table cleaning procedure. That might be helpful to people who have poor table hygiene.

Happy Holidays,
Dave
 

t.wallace

New member
In my experience, the only way to test table toughness is, will balls fall in when it brushes the rail before entering the pocket. This factor is what separates players. If you have fast rails, tables will play tougher. Other factors like pocket facings play an important role. I’m talking about a good table that’s been assembled well, Derby tables are too easy for the top players. They know this and sometimes get sloppy on their position. If a pocket plays to easy, people have a tendency to not focus on their fundamentals and their position gets sloppy. I have played for a long time, and today’s rails are much slower then they used to be. And this tends to make pockets play much easier. Final thought, pool is meant to be fun, that’s why league players love bar boxes. To me a player has two option’s, practice and play like a madman, so your ball pocketing scares the crap out of everyone in your hometown, and you can’t get a game.
Or you can enjoy yourself and get relatively proficient and always have action. Not scientific but true.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In my experience, the only way to test table toughness is, will balls fall in when it brushes the rail before entering the pocket. This factor is what separates players. If you have fast rails, tables will play tougher. Other factors like pocket facings play an important role. I’m talking about a good table that’s been assembled well, Derby tables are too easy for the top players. They know this and sometimes get sloppy on their position. If a pocket plays to easy, people have a tendency to not focus on their fundamentals and their position gets sloppy. I have played for a long time, and today’s rails are much slower then they used to be. And this tends to make pockets play much easier. Final thought, pool is meant to be fun, that’s why league players love bar boxes. To me a player has two option’s, practice and play like a madman, so your ball pocketing scares the crap out of everyone in your hometown, and you can’t get a game.
Or you can enjoy yourself and get relatively proficient and always have action. Not scientific but true.
Derby tables and ANY other table with new worsted cloth plays easy. For a while. Once the cloth breaks in they get tougher. Diamond ProCut pockets on broken-in Simonis(or any worsted) are not easy.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
In my experience, the only way to test table toughness is, will balls fall in when it brushes the rail before entering the pocket.

Agreed. The TDF takes this into account. The pocket opening size, facing angles, and shelf depth are the main factors that determine this. For more info, see the explanations and links on the TDF resource page.

Other factors like pocket facings play an important role.

Many other factors (side pocket geometry, cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, temperature, humidity, cleanliness, etc.) play a role, but the three corner pocket measurements are the most important factors determining the toughness of a table over a wide range of conditions.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:

westcoast

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a 7 foot Valley with 4 inch throat, 4 inch mouth, and 1.5 depth (shelf)
 

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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays in comparison to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the online mobile-friendly TDF calculator (created by "Isaac") or the TDF Excel spreadsheet calculator to get your results.

username - table size, pocket mouth size, mouth-throat difference, shelf depth - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (1920-1925 Brunswick, modified)
CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (Brunswick Anniversary modified)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Red Diamond Pro-Am, modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, FL)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.1, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.22 (shimmed Gabriel Sentinel, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
8cree - 9":1.00, 4.125":1.15, 0.813":1.05, 1.562":1.00 - 1.21 (Diamond Blue Label at The Birds Nest in Summerville, SC)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (modified Centennial)
Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (modified AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/8":0.97, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original Gabriel Sentinel, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 1950s AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.15, 5/8":1.0, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.13 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (GC from Steinway Billiards)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 GC I)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Justaneng - 8':0.90 - 4":1.20, 7/8":1.05, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.12 (Olhausen)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 10.7 cm:1.10, 1.7 cm:1.02, 2.7 cm:0.98 - 1.10 (GC V tournament edition)
ShaneVanNothin - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1":0.97, 2":1.03 - 1.10 (Modified Brunswick)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
tjlmbklr - 8'+:0.95, 4":1.15, 141deg:1.02, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.09 (unknown, maybe homemade or a kit table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GC II, modified)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC)
JC - 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC III)
Banger - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.04 (modified GC III)
Jimmorrison - 7':0.85, 3 7/8":1.25, 7/16":0.99, 3/4":0.98 - 1.03 (modified Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Red Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets)
jondrums - 9':1.00, 11.9cm:0.95, 2.5cm:1.07, 4.2cm:1.00 - 1.02 (Diamond Professional)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1/8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
bignick31985 - 9':1.00, 4 3/8":1.05, 0.475":0.98, 1.5":0.98 - 1.01 (GC IV)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 11.4 cm:1.00, 1.7 cm:1.02, 3.3 cm:0.98 - 1.00 (GC V tournament edition)
coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 1":0.98 - 0.99 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced)
westcoast - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 0":0.97, 1.5":0.99 - 0.98 (Valley bar box)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
jviss - 9’:1.00, 4.98”:0.91, 0.76”:1.04, 1.625”:1.00 - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (Diamond - Blue Label)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
 

Geosnookery

Well-known member
Great thread, re comments. As in the sciences we can only measure what is measureable. Thus the 3 variables. Other variables are no less legitimate but escape being put on any curve relative to each other.

‘Difficulty’ is not easy to compare if expanded outside of a few variables. A learning curve may soon be soon erased. It’s more difficult to learn to drive a standard transmission car than an automatic. However, once the latter is learned, it is no more difficult to drive a standard transmission to the grocery store.



In contrast, increased difficulty may result in a complete change of tactics. I can learn to jump to catch a baseball. However, there is a point at which the ball is too high to catch. Then I need to learn to run and field it off the ground.



This all applies to table size. I don’t have any more difficult potting a 5’ foot straight in ball than a 4’ shot. However, at some distance I can’t pot the ball simply because I can’t reach and new tactic is necessary. ...qualitative change.



My table dimensions:



National Snooker table.



12’ x6’

Mouth opening 8.6 cms

Throat opening 8.6 cms

Shelf depth Photos: not sure where to measure on a rounded pocket. If necessary, I’ll calculate when sure where to measure.



I had the pockets cut slight narrower than tournament size. I found that I got to know my previous table too well. The slight extra difficulty helps to compensate. However, having done this, I still find potting balls on a strange table more of a challenge.



An aside. American pool players often comment how difficult it is to pot a ball on a snooker table. However, there is no need to pot a ball at most trips to the table. It’s like being at the plate in baseball: no need to swing at every pitch...only swing at the pitch you can hit.

71718FF5-E76D-49AA-9CE1-5F0F9C00E20F.jpeg



59D8A953-6003-463A-A0B4-76301FEC3ABF.jpeg


5F5394CE-C133-4E32-B673-383885C83AAE.jpeg
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
‘Difficulty’ is not easy to compare if expanded outside of a few variables. A learning curve may soon be soon erased. It’s more difficult to learn to drive a standard transmission car than an automatic. However, once the latter is learned, it is no more difficult to drive a standard transmission to the grocery store.

In contrast, increased difficulty may result in a complete change of tactics. I can learn to jump to catch a baseball. However, there is a point at which the ball is too high to catch. Then I need to learn to run and field it off the ground.

This all applies to table size. I don’t have any more difficult potting a 5’ foot straight in ball than a 4’ shot. However, at some distance I can’t pot the ball simply because I can’t reach and new tactic is necessary. ...qualitative change.

My table dimensions:
National Snooker table.
12’ x6’
Mouth opening 8.6 cms
Throat opening 8.6 cms
Shelf depth Photos: not sure where to measure on a rounded pocket.

I had the pockets cut slight narrower than tournament size. I found that I got to know my previous table too well. The slight extra difficulty helps to compensate. However, having done this, I still find potting balls on a strange table more of a challenge.

An aside. American pool players often comment how difficult it is to pot a ball on a snooker table. However, there is no need to pot a ball at most trips to the table. It’s like being at the plate in baseball: no need to swing at every pitch...only swing at the pitch you can hit.

Sorry, but the TDF system applies only to pool tables with flat-facing pockets. A totally different analysis would be required to a get comparative system for tables with curved pockets. Maybe I'll try to tackle this some day, but it is not currently on my "radar."

Thanks for posting anyway,
Dave
 
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