Table Layout Situation

[Dan White]

For anybody who cares to comment, let's say you have this situation. The table is open and the 11 is my break ball. The 1 ball only passes the 2 ball if I hit the facing of the pocket. If I hit at all into the pocket and not squarely on the facing then I will touch the 2 and miss. You have a bit of an angle with the cue ball so it isn't like you can line up the cue ball/1 ball straight in and really sight to the pocket facing. There is very little room for error.

So the question really isn't about your other options on this layout. It is about whether you believe this shot should be a "no brainer," and if it isn't then you better improve your pocketing skills. Obviously, for me, I believe it is a little "iffy." After all, the name of the game is to keep the shots simple. Is this a case of maneuvering around to eventually get on the 2, or just knock the 1 in because you are supposed to be able to make this shot?

I'm interested in your thoughts. Oh, obviously I missed the shot.

 

[pt109]

I like shooting the 10-ball and bumping the 5.
...then playing for the 2-ball.
You've taken your key ball off the table, but any ball left is not hopeless
as a key ball.
I've seen a lot of runs end 'cause the player got 'married' to a pattern....
....sometimes one should remember priorities....you have to keep shooting
to make a run.

 

[Dan White]

I like shooting the 10-ball and bumping the 5.
...then playing for the 2-ball.
You've taken your key ball off the table, but any ball left is not hopeless
as a key ball.
I've seen a lot of runs end 'cause the player got 'married' to a pattern....
....sometimes one should remember priorities....you have to keep shooting
to make a run.

OK, so forgetting any particular pattern, is the 1 ball a shot you consider routine for a "runout" player, or one to avoid under any circumstance. I ask really also because Sigel was going through some shot strategy in a group clinic, and there were shots that I thought were routine where his reaction was like, "Oh I'd NEVER shoot that unless I had to." ...and believe me the one shot I'm thinking of now was really quite routine -- maybe not a 100% shot, but pretty close to it.

 

[3andstop]

I like the 1 best. :shrug:

 

[pt109]

OK, so forgetting any particular pattern, is the 1 ball a shot you consider routine for a "runout" player, or one to avoid under any circumstance. I ask really also because Sigel was going through some shot strategy in a group clinic, and there were shots that I thought were routine where his reaction was like, "Oh I'd NEVER shoot that unless I had to." ...and believe me the one shot I'm thinking of now was really quite routine -- maybe not a 100% shot, but pretty close to it.

I would shoot it IF I could see the pocket and the ball.
I may still shoot it if I had no other reasonable choice.

 

[rikdee]

If clearance is, say, an eighth of an inch, I'd shoot it. If a "press fit", like a millimeter, I'd perhaps regroup. If it were straight in, no problem but the fact that it is a cut shot is the challenge of the issue.

 

[lfigueroa]

For anybody who cares to comment, let's say you have this situation. The table is open and the 11 is my break ball. The 1 ball only passes the 2 ball if I hit the facing of the pocket. If I hit at all into the pocket and not squarely on the facing then I will touch the 2 and miss. You have a bit of an angle with the cue ball so it isn't like you can line up the cue ball/1 ball straight in and really sight to the pocket facing. There is very little room for error.

So the question really isn't about your other options on this layout. It is about whether you believe this shot should be a "no brainer," and if it isn't then you better improve your pocketing skills. Obviously, for me, I believe it is a little "iffy." After all, the name of the game is to keep the shots simple. Is this a case of maneuvering around to eventually get on the 2, or just knock the 1 in because you are supposed to be able to make this shot?

I'm interested in your thoughts. Oh, obviously I missed the shot.

One thing I have learned is, if at all possible, to not take iffy shots or go for iffy position play. They are sure-fire run killers. So if I only have part of the pocket to work with I'm going to pass on the one because there are other reasonable options. Me, I'm either shooting the 10 and bumping the five towards the side or cutting the three and playing position for the two to clear a path for the one.

Lou Figueroa

 

[sfleinen]

One thing I have learned is, if at all possible, to not take iffy shots or go for iffy position play. They are sure-fire run killers. So if I only have part of the pocket to work with I'm going to pass on the one because there are other reasonable options. Me, I'm either shooting the 10 and bumping the five towards the side or cutting the three and playing position for the two to clear a path for the one.

Lou Figueroa

I agree. People sometimes get so wound up about shortest distances to a pocket, that they'd opt for less than half a pocket aperture and "sand trap" obstacle balls to get around ("but hey, as long as it's a short distance, right?"). Rather than buckling down on your fundamentals and go for the longer shot with a wide-open pocket. I'm going for that 10 or the 3 all day long. And if you play enough one pocket, that 3 is a standard shot that comes up all the time -- easily offering position for the 2 as well, if you check off of that side cushion.

Granted, this game (14.1) is all about minimizing your cue ball movement, but sometimes you have to eschew the "shortest distance to a pocket" because the shot itself is fraught with danger (i.e. having to absolutely make sure to miss an obstacle ball in the way plus having to catch the pocket facing "just right"). I call those latter shots "hot stove" shots. When you've burned your fingers on those shots enough times, you'll learn to avoid them.

P.S. this reminds me of a neat little saying:
"There are three types of people in this world:
1.) those you can advise that the stove is hot, and they believe you;
2.) those that will hear you telling them the stove is hot, but they have to inspect the stove for themselves and look for the flame anyway; and
3.) those that hear you tell them the stove is hot, don't believe you at all, inspect the stove, see the flame is lit, still don't believe it, and have to go put their hand on the burner to check for heat (and sustain a burn on the hand)."

My hands are all scarred from taking shots like that 1-ball.

-Sean

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I'm either shooting the 10 and bumping the five towards the side ...

I'm doing that and hoping for a straight shot on the five to get to the bottom cushion for the two.

I particularly don't like the one ball because the reach is problematic. If the balls were in a similar situation along the short rail, it would be tastier. If I have to shoot such shots I try to remember to visualize the place in the pocket I want the ball to go. If the pocket has a visible rail groove, that can serve as a visible target. Keep the position part of the shot as simple as possible.

 

[tucson9ball]

If the shot on the 1 is too tight, I would shoot the 10. After the 10, you can shoot the 3 if it gets fairly straight. After that the 8 would give you a good angle to run into the 1 and nudge it away. Then shoot the 2 and clean up the rest, leaving the 5 as your key ball and the 13 as the break ball.
Of course it's always a possibility that a goofy roll would make you change the way you shoot the balls in. You have to stay open to the idea of changing the run out. Nothing is set in stone. Like Pt109 says "you have to keep shooting to make a run".

 

[alstl]

For anybody who cares to comment, let's say you have this situation. The table is open and the 11 is my break ball. The 1 ball only passes the 2 ball if I hit the facing of the pocket. If I hit at all into the pocket and not squarely on the facing then I will touch the 2 and miss. You have a bit of an angle with the cue ball so it isn't like you can line up the cue ball/1 ball straight in and really sight to the pocket facing. There is very little room for error.

So the question really isn't about your other options on this layout. It is about whether you believe this shot should be a "no brainer," and if it isn't then you better improve your pocketing skills. Obviously, for me, I believe it is a little "iffy." After all, the name of the game is to keep the shots simple. Is this a case of maneuvering around to eventually get on the 2, or just knock the 1 in because you are supposed to be able to make this shot?

I'm interested in your thoughts. Oh, obviously I missed the shot.

If the ball cleared the 2 then it was the right shot.

 

[3andstop]

The more I look at the table layout, not only do I like the one best, but, if like it was mentioned, it was less than an 8th inch clearance, I think I'd shoot the 1 -2 combination if the 2 was off the rail a tad without a worry before I shot the 10. But that's just me.

 

[driven]

I'll have a go at it.
for me... If my a game is on, the ten is a hanger and I shoot it all day long.
with automatic position on the ball in the side I don't even look at the slim shot on the one.
If any of my other speeds is on, I gotta shoot the one.

Dan said:

Sigel was going through some shot strategy in a group clinic, and there were shots that I thought were routine where his reaction was like, "Oh I'd NEVER shoot that unless I had to.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.
When I look at a high run video and the player gets a kind of long breakshot, for instance, It kind of looks like they screwed up, where if it were me it would look like I did just fine.
The better player just gets simpler shots.

steven

 

[sfleinen]

The more I look at the table layout, not only do I like the one best, but, if like it was mentioned, it was less than an 8th inch clearance, I think I'd shoot the 1 -2 combination if the 2 was off the rail a tad without a worry before I shot the 10. But that's just me.

3andstop:

The difference with the 1 - 2 combo, is that all you have to worry about is hitting it accurately. On the other hand, the problem with trying to "WD-40" the 1 past the 2, is your margin of error is significantly less. All that needs to happen, is the 1 touches the 2 (resulting in a miss), or you slightly overcut the 1, which catches the pocket facing or pocket point wrong (resulting in a miss/bobbled ball).

I, too, like the 1 - 2 combo better than trying to WD-40 that 1 past the 2. I actually like combos. It's just hard to judge them from a pool.bz diagram. This is where "feel" takes over while at the table.

-Sean

 

[stevekur1]

For anybody who cares to comment, let's say you have this situation. The table is open and the 11 is my break ball. The 1 ball only passes the 2 ball if I hit the facing of the pocket. If I hit at all into the pocket and not squarely on the facing then I will touch the 2 and miss. You have a bit of an angle with the cue ball so it isn't like you can line up the cue ball/1 ball straight in and really sight to the pocket facing. There is very little room for error.

So the question really isn't about your other options on this layout. It is about whether you believe this shot should be a "no brainer," and if it isn't then you better improve your pocketing skills. Obviously, for me, I believe it is a little "iffy." After all, the name of the game is to keep the shots simple. Is this a case of maneuvering around to eventually get on the 2, or just knock the 1 in because you are supposed to be able to make this shot?

I'm interested in your thoughts. Oh, obviously I missed the shot.

I would honestly play the 1 with a touch of inside to get you onto the 7-4 or 8 to get you back onto the 2 ball.

I think playing the 1 with a touch of inside there is no risk in running into the breakball !!

I saved the picture, and am going to experiment with it when I get to a table this weekend.

Maybe someone will be there to hold my phone while I try to get some video of it !!
-Steve

 

[sparkle84]

This is pretty much a no brainer. 10, 5, 1/2 or 2/1, 4, 8, 3, 7. All easy shots with easy multiple position options. I know you're not looking for other options but why shoot the 1 if it's missable.
I wouldn't shoot the 1 even if there was plenty of clearance, simply because it's not the most efficient way to run this set of balls. If you start with the 1 there'll be much more CB movement throughout the run. Mainly because of the position of the 10 & 5.One of those balls needs to be shot in the upper or lower left corners and no ball on the table (with the exception of the 11) leads to them.

 

[3andstop]

3andstop:

The difference with the 1 - 2 combo, is that all you have to worry about is hitting it accurately. On the other hand, the problem with trying to "WD-40" the 1 past the 2, is your margin of error is significantly less. All that needs to happen, is the 1 touches the 2 (resulting in a miss), or you slightly overcut the 1, which catches the pocket facing or pocket point wrong (resulting in a miss/bobbled ball).

I, too, like the 1 - 2 combo better than trying to WD-40 that 1 past the 2. I actually like combos. It's just hard to judge them from a pool.bz diagram. This is where "feel" takes over while at the table.

-Sean

You're right, these diagrams don't do justice trying to illustrate how tight the shot is. If the one was so tight to have to beg for a table roll around the point, then obviously it would be too low a percentage shot to take. The combination for me is higher percentage than the 10 so long as the 2 is off the rail.

Looking at the 10, for me, the one looks like it could get in the way of being comfortable. But that doesnt mean its tough, just that little bit funny that may get in your head. (Or I should say my head.)

I really might consider cutting the 3 before the 10 also. All depends on if I'm playing good that day. i feel like I could short stroke that 10. LOL

 

[michael4]

The 1 ball only passes the 2 ball if I hit the facing of the pocket. If I hit at all into the pocket and not squarely on the facing then I will touch the 2 and miss.
Is this a case of maneuvering around to eventually get on the 2, or just knock the 1 in because you are supposed to be able to make this shot?

many times when I have a tight squeeze past another ball, I over compensate, so as to be sure to miss that ball, but then I miss the shot as well

(did you hit the 2, or miss the pocket?)

I would try find a way to clear out the 2 before the 1 ball

 

[michael4]

is the 1 ball a shot you consider routine for a "runout" player, or one to avoid under any circumstance. Sigel was going through some shot strategy and there were shots that I thought were routine where his reaction was like, ...

I think perhaps you answered your own question,
but another way to look at it is this.....the layout you posted does not "require" that the player shoot the 1 ball first, so I would guess a runout player would not feel the need to shoot it (even if he felt good about making it)


just 2 cents.....


EDIT - I'm sure you get my point...but you gave only 2 options (1) routine, or (2) avoid "under any circumstances".....Im voting for (3) avoid "if you have other better options" (which you do in your example).......if you had no other shot, the answer might be shoot the 1ball.
To me, this is a "Oh I'd NEVER shoot that unless I had to." shot

 

[Dan White]

I would honestly play the 1 with a touch of inside to get you onto the 7-4 or 8 to get you back onto the 2 ball.

I think playing the 1 with a touch of inside there is no risk in running into the breakball !!

I saved the picture, and am going to experiment with it when I get to a table this weekend.

Maybe someone will be there to hold my phone while I try to get some video of it !!
-Steve

Thanks, Steve, but it isn't clear if you got my original point. The question was whether it was wise to shoot the 1 when the 2 was blocking the majority of the pocket, and the 1 could only be made by cheating to the right rail facing. There wasn't really a question about moving the break ball, although that is certainly another discussion.